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T.O.P. -- how important is it???

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  • T.O.P. -- how important is it???

    We have had some discussion about running out the clock and Bowen wrote a piece sort of condeming the Eagles for not winning the TOP battle...... Just how important is winning the TOP battle??????

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    I think it's important in that if you are constantly losing the TOP battle your defense is being extremely overworked.
    Whatcha Gonna Do Brother, When the Eagles run wild on you?

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    • #3
      Exactly. It matters to your defense. For them, it means that you are on the field more, and defending your goal more. And getting worn out more. In an individual game, it aften means little. But if you are ROUTINELY losing the TOP, you have flat out got more mileage on your defenders over the course of the season.
      http://shop.cafepress.com/content/global/img/spacer.gifOK, let's try this again...

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      • #4
        In the best of all worlds dominating the TOP is a good thing (no brainer)

        Losing it but winning game, who cares

        If you rotate a lot of players on the d-line (like the birds are now) I think it mitigates some of that. They are thin in the secondary so probably they are susceptible to that a bit now.

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        • #5
          As others have said it's important in keeping the defense fresh and more important in keeping points off the board. If you control the clock you reduce the opportunities for the other team to score (with the obvious exception of a fumble recovery for a TD). One positive about winning the game but losing the TOP is that the young inexperienced guys get that experience much quicker - but that's really looking for a silver (and green) lining where there is none!!
          Official Driver of the Eagles Bandwagon!!!
          Bleedin' Green since birth!

          "Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many." - Mike Willey

          ”Enjoy The Ride!!!” - Bob Marcus

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          • #6
            it's not always majorly important

            however, it really comes into play when you have a two score lead. TOP should at least be close in thos cases and there should be some effort to run the ball more in those instances.

            I'm OK with taking a shot or two down the field when up comfortably. But I'm not OK with passing 50 times a game. It can get the QB killed, can tire out a defense and most importantly can make it more likely that you can blow the lead

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            • #7
              I'd like to see a little research on this subject. There's a lot of conventional wisdom out there about T.O.P., but i see a hell of a lot of games where it has nothing to do w/ the final score of the game. I question whether or not it's a myth or reality. I'll check footballoutsiders.com.

              I mean, obviously it's beneficial to players to play fewer plays and have longer rests in order to conserve energy. But players rest during REAL TIME, not game-clock time. For example, after a quick 2:00 minute drive by the offense, the defense somtimes gets to rest during 2 long TV timeouts, which in real life time is a good 10-12 minute rest between defensive series, even though only 2 minutes went off the game clock.

              And why does only the defense get tired during long drives?? Isn't the offense out there too? Maybe i'm nuts, but the Eagles offense looked sluggish and tired to me during the 4th Q and OT against the Giants. I don't buy into the theory of the worn out defense, but fresh offense, when they're battling out on the field for the same amount of time.

              Basically i think it's a catch phrase that's used by coaches and fans and the media, but i question what it's real value is.

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              • #8
                We have lost the battle of TOP twice and we have lost one of those games after having a huge lead. I think it is an important indicator of other things that need fixing though.
                TOP is the smoke from the fire that needs to be extingusihed but it by itself is not the fire.

                I don't believe that we have devised an offensive and defensive scheme cleverly meshed together that make it irrelevant.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SwingOnThis
                  I'd like to see a little research on this subject. There's a lot of conventional wisdom out there about T.O.P., but i see a hell of a lot of games where it has nothing to do w/ the final score of the game. I question whether or not it's a myth or reality. I'll check footballoutsiders.com.

                  I mean, obviously it's beneficial to players to play fewer plays and have longer rests in order to conserve energy. But players rest during REAL TIME, not game-clock time. For example, after a quick 2:00 minute drive by the offense, the defense somtimes gets to rest during 2 long TV timeouts, which in real life time is a good 10-12 minute rest between defensive series, even though only 2 minutes went off the game clock.

                  And why does only the defense get tired during long drives?? Isn't the offense out there too? Maybe i'm nuts, but the Eagles offense looked sluggish and tired to me during the 4th Q and OT against the Giants. I don't buy into the theory of the worn out defense, but fresh offense, when they're battling out on the field for the same amount of time.

                  Basically i think it's a catch phrase that's used by coaches and fans and the media, but i question what it's real value is.
                  BINGO!!!!!!!!

                  It is a stupid question (and yes I know I'm the one that asked it,, for a reason)!!!

                  The media uses this as a blanket, a truism, a cliché, ---- but how important is it really??????

                  The Steelers just won the last SB and lost the TOP?

                  How many play off games have the Eagles won -- yet lost the TOP?

                  So is TOP really an important factor or just a by-product of how that particular game was played by those two particular teams and the circumstances within that particular game?

                  IMO, it's not that important, it's a media created cliché!

                  IMO, if you lose the TOP it's because your D played poorly on the other hand it could be because your O played poorly OR your O played very well and they were very efficient.

                  IMO, TOP is only useful if the play and game itself is looked at on a individual basis and not as a generality, as the media (and we) sometimes tend to do.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SwingOnThis
                    I'd like to see a little research on this subject. There's a lot of conventional wisdom out there about T.O.P., but i see a hell of a lot of games where it has nothing to do w/ the final score of the game. I question whether or not it's a myth or reality. I'll check footballoutsiders.com.

                    I mean, obviously it's beneficial to players to play fewer plays and have longer rests in order to conserve energy. But players rest during REAL TIME, not game-clock time. For example, after a quick 2:00 minute drive by the offense, the defense somtimes gets to rest during 2 long TV timeouts, which in real life time is a good 10-12 minute rest between defensive series, even though only 2 minutes went off the game clock.

                    And why does only the defense get tired during long drives?? Isn't the offense out there too? Maybe i'm nuts, but the Eagles offense looked sluggish and tired to me during the 4th Q and OT against the Giants. I don't buy into the theory of the worn out defense, but fresh offense, when they're battling out on the field for the same amount of time.

                    Basically i think it's a catch phrase that's used by coaches and fans and the media, but i question what it's real value is.
                    I agree with Swing...good post btw...T.O.P. is not vital.

                    You win by outscoring your opponent and the best way to prevent comebacks is to SCORE more points...it is more effective for the Eagles to do this via the pass, but as Westy's run last week and other runs so far show they can run it well too...I do not care how they do it....run, pass, skip, walk, skate...whatever works and be aggressive with it so you can get a lead and unleash your defense...

                    Again, the defense can REST itself by executing, stopping their offense and getting OFF the field...we have the talent to do that, but have had some problems giving up big plays and stopping teams on 3rd down...that is NOT on the offense IMO....that is ON the defense to correct.
                    Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                    -Andy Reid

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                    • #11
                      TOP a bit skewed in regards to pass vs. run teams,

                      but most importantly

                      turnovers in key situations
                      Five straight losses, including a crucial one at Dallas on Christmas Day, send them out against Atlanta, needing the win, plus help. -Dr. Z, 8/31/06

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                      • #12
                        It is difficult to figure out the importance of TOP. For instance the Eagles have been in the bottom half of the league since 2003 per the stats on nfl.com. Obviously, only in 2005 was it indicative of a poor W-L record. They ranked something like 26th in 2004 (Indy was one spot higher).

                        On top of that, about half the league is between 29:00 and 31:00 TOP. How much difference less than 2 minutes really make?

                        Also, out of the top four teams in TOP last year (Den, Dal, KC, SD) only one made the playoffs.

                        Interestingly all four teams in the AFC East were in the bottom half of the league in TOP and two were in the bottom 3 (Mia, NYJ). How can that be considering how often they play each other?

                        Good question but I really think TOP is one of those oft-quoted stats with little real meaning in and of itself.

                        Pags

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                        • #13
                          I think TOP is a pretty good indicator of winning percentage, and there are some studies to support it (e.g. ->> http://www.nfl.com/news/story/6702386). But, as the article points out, you have to be able to score.

                          Of course, being able to run the ball is probably the best way to gain TOP. And, while Andy at the beginning of the season pledged to run the ball more, it takes more than lip service to turn the idea into reality.

                          I would argue that we really don't have the type of running back necessary to sustain a real commitment to the running attack. Westbrook, Moats, Buckhalter, and Moats are all slashers. None of them are really good at running between the tackles, carrying 25+ times per game, or getting the tough yards on a short third or fourth down play. IMO, Andy is so concerned with wanting his backs to catch passes, that he has consistently overlooked the need for the tough-yard runner.

                          In another thread today, I read where Ladell Betts is available in free agency. He would be the perfect back to complement our current lineup of runners. He would be capable of getting the tough yards when we need them so as to be able to control the ball.

                          So, until we have a running back capable of grinding it out and getting the tough yards on the ground (like Betts), Andy's assertions that he wants to run the ball more will only be wishful thinking. You have to have the right kind of personnel to have a strong running game.

                          Controlling the ball means keeping our opponents off the field and keeping our defense fresh and better able to ward off injuries. It isn't just theory, it is smart, practical football. It explains why wide-open attacks like the old Chargers and Cardinals under Don Coryell failed to win any championships, and why grind-it-out attacks like the old Packers, Redskins, and Steelers won consistently.
                          "Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." - Joe Theismann



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                          • #14
                            It's like basketball announcers who drone on and on about 'bench scoring'. I never understand that. I mean, if your bench puts up a huge amount of points, doesn't that mean that the coach is a moron and he probably should be STARTING those guys?? Or if your team's scoring is spread out among 10 guys rather than 6, it's somehow 'better'. Last time i checked, points are points. Doesn't matter who scored them.

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                            • #15
                              But Stock, Andy doesn't think that way, so it's wrong.
                              http://shop.cafepress.com/content/global/img/spacer.gifOK, let's try this again...

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