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  • #16
    That horrible passing game led by McNabb got us back in the game after trailing by 17-3 including a 60 yd bomb to Brown for a TD...we had the lead in the 4th quarter and then our defense gave up the double-move TD to Horn, tying the game and allowed that 8 minute drive to end it with their winning FG...
    Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

    -Andy Reid

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
      That horrible passing game led by McNabb got us back in the game after trailing by 17-3 including a 60 yd bomb to Brown for a TD...we had the lead in the 4th quarter and then our defense gave up the double-move TD to Horn, tying the game and allowed that 8 minute drive to end it with their winning FG...
      That comment scares me VFK. We had the ball for something like 17 minutes that game. Can't you understand that the ball control offense that the Birds are now running is much more effective than the bombs away crap they ran ealrier in the season?
      "Hey Giants, who's your Daddy?"

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Eagle60
        Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
        That horrible passing game led by McNabb got us back in the game after trailing by 17-3 including a 60 yd bomb to Brown for a TD...we had the lead in the 4th quarter and then our defense gave up the double-move TD to Horn, tying the game and allowed that 8 minute drive to end it with their winning FG...
        That comment scares me VFK. We had the ball for something like 17 minutes that game. Can't you understand that the ball control offense that the Birds are now running is much more effective than the bombs away crap they ran ealrier in the season?
        LMAO! Um, no, he can't.

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        • #19
          I think vfk is saying that the defense has to play better this time around. The ball control game is huge but we have to be able to step up and play on the denfensive side of the bll. Last time out the defense took the 4th quarter off and gave up the huge D to Horn who was so wide open it looked like he was on the field alone. They followed that up by letting Brees eat away the last 8 and a half minutes of the game on a single drive. Of course the 12 men on the field penalty erased a sack on 3rd and 10 and kept the drive going. Bottom line here is that the defense needs to play their best game of the season for us to win. Any let down and we're going to struggle. And BP is dead on, the way to keep the defense from having a let down is to control the clock and keep Trotter and Company on the side lines and fresh.
          Official Driver of the Eagles Bandwagon!!!
          Bleedin' Green since birth!

          "Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many." - Mike Willey

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Eagle60
            Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
            That horrible passing game led by McNabb got us back in the game after trailing by 17-3 including a 60 yd bomb to Brown for a TD...we had the lead in the 4th quarter and then our defense gave up the double-move TD to Horn, tying the game and allowed that 8 minute drive to end it with their winning FG...
            That comment scares me VFK. We had the ball for something like 17 minutes that game. Can't you understand that the ball control offense that the Birds are now running is much more effective than the bombs away crap they ran ealrier in the season?
            60, I have admitted better balance is always more effective...hundreds of times...

            That is different than people stating McNabb was "pass happy" that day or we were down 17-3 because of the offense...

            Again, the DEFENSE needs to take accountability for THEIR play too...it is not all blame the offense...

            And the OFFENSE reeled off 21 straight points to give their defense a LEAD in the 4th quarter 24-17...the DEFENSE could not hold it...since Lewis got beaten like a mule on a double move and then the DEFENSE allowed a 8 minute drive due to some bone headed plays (remember the 12 men on the field penalty?), missed tackles etc.

            If we get down 17-3 headed into the 3rd quarter again, there is some IMO doubt that Garcia and this offense could reel off 21 straight points that quickly...

            We have to play very cautious and not get down big or I am afraid we may be cooked...the DEFENSE hopefully will not allow another 1st possession TD like they did last week...that was indicative of their play before the improved play during our streak and I hope they can get it back on track...
            Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

            -Andy Reid

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Eaglebreath
              Originally posted by Eagle60
              Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
              That horrible passing game led by McNabb got us back in the game after trailing by 17-3 including a 60 yd bomb to Brown for a TD...we had the lead in the 4th quarter and then our defense gave up the double-move TD to Horn, tying the game and allowed that 8 minute drive to end it with their winning FG...
              That comment scares me VFK. We had the ball for something like 17 minutes that game. Can't you understand that the ball control offense that the Birds are now running is much more effective than the bombs away crap they ran ealrier in the season?
              LMAO! Um, no, he can't.
              Yea, I never have...

              Oh, and yes it is ALL the offense's fault...the defense did nothing wrong this year...

              Just because that "bomb-happy crap" got us to a SB means zero...
              Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

              -Andy Reid

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jukin
                I think vfk is saying that the defense has to play better this time around. The ball control game is huge but we have to be able to step up and play on the denfensive side of the bll. Last time out the defense took the 4th quarter off and gave up the huge D to Horn who was so wide open it looked like he was on the field alone. They followed that up by letting Brees eat away the last 8 and a half minutes of the game on a single drive. Of course the 12 men on the field penalty erased a sack on 3rd and 10 and kept the drive going. Bottom line here is that the defense needs to play their best game of the season for us to win. Any let down and we're going to struggle. And BP is dead on, the way to keep the defense from having a let down is to control the clock and keep Trotter and Company on the side lines and fresh.
                Oh, I know exactly what VFK was saying Juk. NO won that game with ball control. How many 3 and outs did we have that day? That sure puts alot of pressure on your defense. It was an absolutely horrible gameplan by the Birds, both offensively and defensivly. And if JJ tries to go back to the bend but don't break crap, that will be a disaster too as he would be playing right into the Saint's strength.
                "Hey Giants, who's your Daddy?"

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                • #23
                  Now, I know this doesn't make any difference to the defense, but...

                  I looked at our drive charts from that game, and to me, it illustrates a big part of our problem early on. Our longest drive in that game was 4:49. Our first four drives..6 plays, 3:48...3 plays,0:53...3 plays, 0:41....5 plays, 2:06...we then had an 11 play, 4:49 drive for a FG that was our longest of the entire game.

                  I cannot totally blame the offense for the defense's failure to get off the field in the last 8 minutes of the game. BUT, you cannot sit there and tell me that the lack of ball control early in that game does not play a roll in how gassed your defense is late in the game. This had been an ongoing problem for us all year, until Marty started emphasizing ball control.

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                  • #24
                    The TOP difference in that game wasn't huge 34 to 26. (in fact it would have been about dead even had the D not committed that awful 12 men penalty)

                    But once again people suggest TOP as the meaningful stat. IMO, it is only the result, the by-product.

                    TOP doesn't tire a defense out, standing around waiting for the play clock to wind down doesn't tire anybody out.

                    The more telling factor, stat wise, and the one that has a direct correlation to tiring a Defense out is offensive plays run-- during that short couple of seconds is where they expend the energy -- not just when the play clock is winding down.

                    In the NO our D had to defend 14 more offensive plays then their D did----- that is what tires a Defense out, not the TOP. That and how often you substitute determines more on how tired a defense will get, not TOP, TOP is just the byproduct.

                    And while each unit is somewhat dependent on each other,,,, each unit has a job, the O's job is to score points and the D's job is to stop the other team from scoring, firstly, and secondly to get it self off the field to give the ball back to it's O, as many times as it takes for the O to score enough points to win.

                    The D's job was to get off the field in the NO game, and they had accomplished that -- until the stupid bone headed mistake of 12 men on the field. It wasn't TOP that led to that loss, IMO, it was a stupid penalty, it wasn't the scheme or pass run ratios, or bombs Vs short passes, it was the D's failure to get off the field and give the ball back to the O in the 4th qtr, no matter how many other 3 and outs the O had or might have. The O scored 24 points that day, that should be enough to win. And the TOP would have been just about even at that point, NO didn't have a big advantage there until our D gave it to them.

                    Disclaimer #2456--- No I am not advocating that the TOP or ball control isn't better to have generally (although as we know it isn't a given or a "have to have" to win) all I'm saying is that TOP in and by itself isn't nearly as important as offensive plays run and substitutions are in determining when a D gets "gassed". Not the clock.

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                    • #25
                      MD, that's a fair point. But, I still think the defense was spending entirely too much time on the field early in the season, and it was effecting them, especially late in the games. What we are doing now, running the ball, controlling the clock, and generally running more offensive plays using more clock, is having a positive effect on our defense. Those 3 imcomplete passes and a punt drives are hard on a defense. Especially two or three of them in a row, and we were doing a lot of that early on.

                      It's almost hard to believe that game was in week 6. It should be interesting, because we are a different team than we were back then, obviously.

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                      • #26
                        offensive plays run by your own team is not a telling stat. You could run the ball 20 times and take up a ton more on the play clock vs. throwing it 20 times and taking up very little. The other defense gets more offensive plays when the opposition is throwing it more often and not controlling the clock. The reason the other offense is getting more plays is two fold:

                        1) Your defense can't stop anybody
                        2) Your offense is not a ball control offense. It isn't because of offensive ineptitude as much as your philosophy. The Indianapolis Colts are a prime example of this as their quick strike offense is certainly not inept but they leave their defense on the field for long stretches because of their offense AND because of #1.

                        So if you are struggling with #1, then why wouldn't you try to compensate on offense by minimizing the defense's exposure?

                        The clock is going to stop more often in a pass happy offense. I will reiterate the bottom line results:

                        We've won the TOP battle 7 times this year. In those games we are 6-1. When we lose TOP - we are 5-5.

                        We have run the ball more than 40% of the time in 10 games. In those games we are 8-2. When running 40% or less - we are 3-4.

                        It is an offensive philosophy. A team, especially one predicated on pressuring the QB and creating turnovers, should try to get a lead and then manage the clock. In doing this, you shorten the game, you don't allow the opposition as many opportunities to get the ball and you force them to take chances in order to get back into the game.

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                        • #27
                          "MD, that's a fair point. But, I still think the defense was spending entirely too much time on the field early in the season"

                          EB, I agree, but part of the problem early (and even lately) on was the number of O plays for the other team and the number of times the D allowed "early" ( if not 1st drives) scores by the opposition. So some of it goes right back on them.

                          Their job to get off the field and in most games this year, they weren't doing it. Seems to me, just memory here, but most of the complaints I remember right here about the Eagles this year was about the defense not the offense.

                          Again if each unit does it's job you win every game, but, JIMO, the D needs to take more responsibility in getting itself off the field. And they did it many times only to take a stupid penalty or make some stupid mistake (not falling on a fumble) that kept themselves out there. If the O goes 3 and out, regardless if it take 45 game clock seconds or 2 and half game clock minutes, the D needs to go back out and get itself off the field.

                          Also the while the game clock does stop on the incomplete pass, but also the play clock doesn't, the actual amount of time that a D expends energy isn't the play clock or the game clock (TOP) it's "only" the actual time spent during a play--- so the plays accumulating is what "can" tire out a Defense. I don't think standing in between plays is gonna tire a D out, whereas running 20 more plays might though. That is why I firmly believe that O plays and substitutions carry much more weight than TOP does.

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                          • #28
                            All of the above can be debated endlessly. The truth of the matter is really quite simple. It takes time for young players like Andrews, Jackson and Herremans to develop and then more time to mesh with each other and the two old pros on the outside. Then it has to function enough that the coaching staff can rely on them, plan around them and turn them into a weapon that frees up our D, punishes the opponents and controls games and TOP. C'mon folks I clearly remember some here doubting whether Andrews could/would get his weight under control and be able to stay healthy and perform at a high level. There were many more doubters for Jackson and whether he had the physical and intellectual skills to even supplant Honeybuns, much less gain recognition for becoming a potential all-pro performer. Lastly I remember arguments with some about Herremans who was said to be too big...too slow....too weak..too inexperienced just too too. Those were fair debates from the glass half full/half empty viewpoints. Now we know the glass is not only full to the brim but has been supersized beyond our greatest hopes. Our approach and results early this year don't mean diddly now. I say Andy has aimed at this, planned for this, staffed for this for years and ONLY now are we entering a performance zone where he/we can do things with more balance and the resulting good effect it brings on.

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