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  • I'm really confused here (long analysis)

    Guys, we are all over the place here on the board when it comes to this Vick/Kolb decision but let me see if I can capture the general sense.

    + Reid pulled the plugged too soon on Kolb. He never really gave the kid the chance to prove himself and now has lost him mentally wasting $12 million dollars in the process. Thus... Reid is on the hotset this year and especially next year.

    + Michael Vick is good enough to win some games but not good enough to be a difference maker long-term which means if Kolb psyche is busted we have to go out now and find a starting QB since we traded our Pro Bowler away.

    + We as fans had accepted this as a transition year for a young team so we were ready for a tough year record-wise.

    None of this makes a bit of sense to me and no my name is not Dave Spadaro.

    First, why in the world would Reid be on the hotseat here. Isn't Reid the one that last fall picked up the phone and said to Lurie..."What about Michael Vick?" Isn't Reid the one that hand-picked Kevin Kolb as McNabb's successor and according to reports there are several teams interested in trading for Kolb. So, should Kolb want out - which it appears he does - the Eagles can deal him and probably get close to what they used to get him. Granted, they would lose out on $12 million bucks but it is not our money... it is Lurie's. And, once again according to reports, Lurie pushed this. So, if Jeff Lurie is willing to write Kevin Kolb as check for $12 million and then shove him out the door who are we to choose it is the wrong decision. It looks like the right decision on the field.

    Second, Michael Vick is a good QB... always has been, always will be... or at least until he loses his legs. Last year he wasn't good because he was out of shape and in a transition year from his "vacation" to prison. Vick was a good QB in Atlanta. Was he Joe Montana, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning... no. But, he wasn't Jamarcus Russell or Kyle Boller either. He was a tick under the McNabbs and Eli Mannings of the world but is arguably the best running QB in the history of the game. For a team that appears to be unable to block, a running QB is a better option than a fairly stationary target. Vick appears to be the BEST option for the Eagles this year based on the players they have on this team. I would say, Vick is a better option this year than McNabb would've been. The lockerroom sees it. They want to win. Desean Jackson, Stewart Bradley Winston Justice, et al, are playing the company line and supporting Kolb and Vick publicly but you know behind closed doors they are saying to AR that Vick has to play. Do you blame them? And, therefore, do you blame Andy Reid for saying the decision is 100% his. Should Kolb be the guy next year, how is he supposed to call a play in the huddle knowing that publicly Jackson, McCoy, Maclin, Celek, all were voicing their opinion publicly for Vick. So, Reid provides the lockerroom cover. Does he look wishy washy and a bit ass-like in the process... YES. But, that is what Reid does. He takes the arrows for the players and the players love him for it. He also listens to the players. Think about it... Trot wanted out, Reid let him out. McNabb wanted to be traded to a good team... AR traded him in the division to a good team. Older guys wanted to be paid... Reid offers them a fair deal and then pats them on the back for getting paid when they walk away. The players love this man. If they didn't, do you really think he would be as successful as he has been.

    Finally, the NFC isn't that good this year. The Vikings and Cowboys appear beatable with a grandfather for a QB and a bad OL/secondary respectively. The Cardinals look like they might be crappy. The Saints are 2-0 but it took 3 49ers turnovers inside the Saints 30 Monday night for them to be so. The Panthers suck. The Redskins and Giants don't scare anybody. The Panthers suck. The 49ers are 0-2. The three teams that look good so far are the Bucs, Bears and Packers. Does anyone really believe that the Bucs and Bears will be there at the end? So that leaves the Packers, who we looked bad against for 2.5 quarters in our season opener but we almost beat despite 4 key injuries. Am I saying that Michael Vick can win the Super Bowl? Probably not... but if you think he might have finally figured it out why not give it a shot. He has looked ridiculous in 6 quarters of football. Kolb looked really bad in 2 quarters. So bad and so unaware of the rush that he would probably get killed and become David Carr back there by week 5. Do we really want that?

    Conclusion and sorry for diarrhea of the mouth here.
    I love you guys on the board here but we really need to give Vick a chance. I know he was an accessory to a dog-fighting ring. I know he has his flaws. But the NFL man of the year Warren Moon beat his wife. The Cowboys had a crackwagon for years. Charles Haley was psycho and still is by most reports. T.O. is crazy. Braylon Edwards is nuts and so is his coach. Michael Vick made a huge mistake and since then has kept his nose clean. Yes, there was a shooting at a Birthday party the guy "hosted" but the NFL investigated and found Vick had nothing to do with it. The guy is broke and by all reports lent his name to a bar and made a brief appearance to try and make some money to pay off his debts. I'm not making an excuse here but some people on this board are never going to let this go and for that reason you are convicting Reid and Vick of not being worthy of starting the season despite what you've seen from Vick on the field the last 6 quarters and off the field the last 18 months. If the front office loses Kolb for good... big deal. It is there money to begin with. I'd rather lose Kolb than the locker room. Vick is a very young 30. If he lights it up this year, you give him a 5-year $40 million deal and go into the draft this year and get another successor. By the way, the 2011 NFL Draft by all accounts is loaded with QBs. Reid has shown a pretty good eye at evaluating QBs... McNabb, Garcia, A.J. Feeley, Kolb, now Vick.... so let's say the great Kolb experiment blows up. I DON'T CARE. They can get another QB in the draft and go to war with Vick this year. Take emotion out of this decision and look at this from a common sense position. Kolb looks like a young, sitting duck standing behind an OL that can't protect him. The lockerroom wants Reid to play a guy that has shown he can play in the past and looks to be back to his old form... or perhaps better. The guy the lockerroom wants has the feet and the swagger that the guy you traded in the offseason used to have. He has his shortcomings but he makes up for it most of the time with amazing athleticism.

    We need to just get over ourselves and once again trust this organization. Reid is a players coach. These guys would lay down in traffic for him because he protects them and gives them what they want. Does that mean that occassionally a Kevin Kolb gets caught in the gears of the NFL machine... yes... but he is getting paid $12 million this year. I think he will survive.
    You know Darren if you'd have told me 10 years ago that someday I was going to solve the world's energy problems I'd have said your crazy.... now lets drop this big ball of oil out the window.

  • #2
    Originally posted by andrewaters View Post
    Guys, we are all over the place here on the board when it comes to this Vick/Kolb decision but let me see if I can capture the general sense.

    + Reid pulled the plugged too soon on Kolb. He never really gave the kid the chance to prove himself and now has lost him mentally wasting $12 million dollars in the process. Thus... Reid is on the hotset this year and especially next year.

    + Michael Vick is good enough to win some games but not good enough to be a difference maker long-term which means if Kolb psyche is busted we have to go out now and find a starting QB since we traded our Pro Bowler away.

    + We as fans had accepted this as a transition year for a young team so we were ready for a tough year record-wise.

    None of this makes a bit of sense to me and no my name is not Dave Spadaro.

    First, why in the world would Reid be on the hotseat here. Isn't Reid the one that last fall picked up the phone and said to Lurie..."What about Michael Vick?" Isn't Reid the one that hand-picked Kevin Kolb as McNabb's successor and according to reports there are several teams interested in trading for Kolb. So, should Kolb want out - which it appears he does - the Eagles can deal him and probably get close to what they used to get him. Granted, they would lose out on $12 million bucks but it is not our money... it is Lurie's. And, once again according to reports, Lurie pushed this. So, if Jeff Lurie is willing to write Kevin Kolb as check for $12 million and then shove him out the door who are we to choose it is the wrong decision. It looks like the right decision on the field.

    Second, Michael Vick is a good QB... always has been, always will be... or at least until he loses his legs. Last year he wasn't good because he was out of shape and in a transition year from his "vacation" to prison. Vick was a good QB in Atlanta. Was he Joe Montana, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning... no. But, he wasn't Jamarcus Russell or Kyle Boller either. He was a tick under the McNabbs and Eli Mannings of the world but is arguably the best running QB in the history of the game. For a team that appears to be unable to block, a running QB is a better option than a fairly stationary target. Vick appears to be the BEST option for the Eagles this year based on the players they have on this team. I would say, Vick is a better option this year than McNabb would've been. The lockerroom sees it. They want to win. Desean Jackson, Stewart Bradley Winston Justice, et al, are playing the company line and supporting Kolb and Vick publicly but you know behind closed doors they are saying to AR that Vick has to play. Do you blame them? And, therefore, do you blame Andy Reid for saying the decision is 100% his. Should Kolb be the guy next year, how is he supposed to call a play in the huddle knowing that publicly Jackson, McCoy, Maclin, Celek, all were voicing their opinion publicly for Vick. So, Reid provides the lockerroom cover. Does he look wishy washy and a bit ass-like in the process... YES. But, that is what Reid does. He takes the arrows for the players and the players love him for it. He also listens to the players. Think about it... Trot wanted out, Reid let him out. McNabb wanted to be traded to a good team... AR traded him in the division to a good team. Older guys wanted to be paid... Reid offers them a fair deal and then pats them on the back for getting paid when they walk away. The players love this man. If they didn't, do you really think he would be as successful as he has been.

    Finally, the NFC isn't that good this year. The Vikings and Cowboys appear beatable with a grandfather for a QB and a bad OL/secondary respectively. The Cardinals look like they might be crappy. The Saints are 2-0 but it took 3 49ers turnovers inside the Saints 30 Monday night for them to be so. The Panthers suck. The Redskins and Giants don't scare anybody. The Panthers suck. The 49ers are 0-2. The three teams that look good so far are the Bucs, Bears and Packers. Does anyone really believe that the Bucs and Bears will be there at the end? So that leaves the Packers, who we looked bad against for 2.5 quarters in our season opener but we almost beat despite 4 key injuries. Am I saying that Michael Vick can win the Super Bowl? Probably not... but if you think he might have finally figured it out why not give it a shot. He has looked ridiculous in 6 quarters of football. Kolb looked really bad in 2 quarters. So bad and so unaware of the rush that he would probably get killed and become David Carr back there by week 5. Do we really want that?

    Conclusion and sorry for diarrhea of the mouth here.
    I love you guys on the board here but we really need to give Vick a chance. I know he was an accessory to a dog-fighting ring. I know he has his flaws. But the NFL man of the year Warren Moon beat his wife. The Cowboys had a crackwagon for years. Charles Haley was psycho and still is by most reports. T.O. is crazy. Braylon Edwards is nuts and so is his coach. Michael Vick made a huge mistake and since then has kept his nose clean. Yes, there was a shooting at a Birthday party the guy "hosted" but the NFL investigated and found Vick had nothing to do with it. The guy is broke and by all reports lent his name to a bar and made a brief appearance to try and make some money to pay off his debts. I'm not making an excuse here but some people on this board are never going to let this go and for that reason you are convicting Reid and Vick of not being worthy of starting the season despite what you've seen from Vick on the field the last 6 quarters and off the field the last 18 months. If the front office loses Kolb for good... big deal. It is there money to begin with. I'd rather lose Kolb than the locker room. Vick is a very young 30. If he lights it up this year, you give him a 5-year $40 million deal and go into the draft this year and get another successor. By the way, the 2011 NFL Draft by all accounts is loaded with QBs. Reid has shown a pretty good eye at evaluating QBs... McNabb, Garcia, A.J. Feeley, Kolb, now Vick.... so let's say the great Kolb experiment blows up. I DON'T CARE. They can get another QB in the draft and go to war with Vick this year. Take emotion out of this decision and look at this from a common sense position. Kolb looks like a young, sitting duck standing behind an OL that can't protect him. The lockerroom wants Reid to play a guy that has shown he can play in the past and looks to be back to his old form... or perhaps better. The guy the lockerroom wants has the feet and the swagger that the guy you traded in the offseason used to have. He has his shortcomings but he makes up for it most of the time with amazing athleticism.

    We need to just get over ourselves and once again trust this organization. Reid is a players coach. These guys would lay down in traffic for him because he protects them and gives them what they want. Does that mean that occassionally a Kevin Kolb gets caught in the gears of the NFL machine... yes... but he is getting paid $12 million this year. I think he will survive.
    Lost in the facts here is that Kolb really has proved nothing and is making a shit load of dough. The only comparison that I see is Whitehurst getting $5 million to back up the oft injured Seattle QB. I guess if Vick plays lights out for the rest of the season he gets resigned and Kolb gets moved. I doubt the Birds will want to pay him to sit on the bench. I don't see his market value on another team being all that high though.
    "Hey Giants, who's your Daddy?"

    Comment


    • #3
      AW-Terrific analysis !

      E60-Kolb looked pretty poised throwing for over 300+ yards in both his games last year. But, everybody keeps dwelling on the bad 1 1/2 quarters this year, which he shared along with Vick being mixed in about 1/3 of the plays. Kolb can get the job done. Vick deserves to start. But, don't shortchange Kolb just yet.

      Comment


      • #4
        Great analysis AW!

        Here's where I disagree, just my
        - given what little teams have seen of Kolb, his trade value has fallen. His agent can only bargain with what the Eagles "hope" he can do. In that sense, Heckert will have the best handle on what Kolb did in practice. We've heard all sorts of theories on who "pushed" this move, including the idea that Reid, after reviewing the game film, saw that McGlynn had problems recognizing the blitzes that were coming their way, and it had a domino effect on the protection from our OLine. If Reid is doing this move to protect Kolb, or just put in a QB with a better ability to escape, Lurie can't be happy that we didn't adequately address a problem that we saw in our last few games after Jamaal Jackson got hurt. Does it put AR on the hot seat? Maybe, maybe not, but Lurie wouldn't (or, shouldn't) be happy with it.

        As for paragraph #2, I agree with most of it, but I think he's basically a one-trick pony like Randall Cunningham was. I even agree that TDK would be a better fit for the 2010 Eagles than McNabb, because TDK has a better ability to escape and run for his life (and it looks like it's an ability that he's really going to need). He's a couple of ticks below McNabb and Eli as a QB, we'll win games against poor teams, win some games against average teams, and have our hands full against good teams. He's only had one 10+ win season as a starter.

        Agree that the NFC isn't very good this year. It's nuts. So there you go, we'll have a chance to win a fair number of games, even with TDK at QB. I think that Brad Childress might get the Vikings turned around, but they've got problems of their own. A few other teams have a pulse, but the NFC right now looks like a crapshoot. And I do mean crap shoot.

        On the conclusion, even if we put all the "ethics" issues aside*......I don't like this as a football decision. If Kolb really is the future, then put him out there and give him a chance to prove himself, let's see what he has. Randall Cunningham had season as a starter on the Eagles where he was sacked 50, 60, even 72 times. So Kolb will make it or not, he'll sink or swim, he'll get the ball out quickly and make his hot reads or he'll land on the turf. It's just football. And, if we spent 3 years waiting for a guy who's already a career backup, we'll, then that's on Reid.

        Great discussions everyone, I think we'll make it through this!


        *a buddy of mine told me yesterday, "Dude, if you have a problem with NFL teams that have guys with rap sheets, then you really shouldn't follow football. Portis condoned TDK's dog fighting ring, Stall served 30 days for killing someone on DUI, and Ray Lewis bought a jury to get a couple of murderers off the hook." I had to admit it was a good point
        "Philly fans are great....It's the only place where you pull up on the bus and you've got the grandfather, the grandmother, the kids and the grandkids - everybody flicking you off. At other stadiums, they give you the thumbs-down. Here, they give you the middle finger.”
        — Michael Strahan

        "No one likes us, no one likes us, no one likes us, we don’t care, we’re from Philly, F—-ing Philly, No one likes us, we don’t care!”
        - Jason Kelce with the best championship speech ever

        Comment


        • #5
          AW- I agree with you on this point:

          "Vick appears to be the BEST option for the Eagles this year based on the players they have on this team. I would say, Vick is a better option this year than McNabb would've been. The lockerroom sees it. They want to win."

          BUT... it's not that simple. First, it doesn't matter what the lockerroom wants. The coach is paid to think bigger picture. If you think the Eagles can win the SB with Vick, then this is obviously your move. But do you think with all the holes on this team that Andy Reid really thinks he can win a SB with Vick? He's not blind.

          Also, as for the $12M being Lurie's money -- you are right. Except that it means it's $12M that's down the drain and there's no guarantee that Lurie plays the game like Jerry Jones of the world where they just shrug and write it off. In fact, Lurie probably plays the game like we play it. If you had $100 in your wallet for Christmas toys, spent $12 at the first store and then threw it out the window because you changed your mind, are you gonna make up that $12? Or are you now only gonna spend $88 on toys?

          Finally, I'm all for giving Vick a chance. I've always been a vick supporter of sorts on this board. I believe he did his time and deserves a second chance. I have no ethical or moral objections to him being on the team or even back in the NFL. But I simply don't believe this TEAM is built to win the SB this year. So despite any Vick heroics, what's the point? I don't think he's smart enough to learn to be a pocket passer that reads defenses well enough to make a SB run. Two years in prison doesn't make you any smarter. Somehow, all the flaws Vick had in Atlanta have been washed away by time and 1.5 games. How is that possible?

          Do you guys not remember how awful Vick could look in Atlanta? Sure he's had games every bit as good as he had against Detroit. But he also had awful awful games as a passer.

          The argument against mcnabb goes for Vick as well: neither will win you the super bowl (opinion obviously) so why not see what you have in Kolb. I thought we were going down that road but after 1/2 a game, Reid threw his new toy out the window for another toy.
          Last edited by sfphillyfan; 09-23-2010, 11:10 AM.

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          • #6
            aw, that's some good commentary. I disagree with some of what you said and agree with other parts. One thing you have to realize is that Kolb will only cost the Eagles $12 million this season if they keep him on the bench for the entire season. If they trade him during the year the other team picks up what ever is left on the contract. If Kolb plays at all then they're right where they expected to be when they opened TC. So the only way they take a financial hit is to sit him for the year and not play or trade him. As you said though, it's Lurie's money not mine.

            As for Reid being on the hot seat that's really dependent on who really made the move to Vick as the starter. I can't imagine that Reid would stand at the podium and say so decisively that Kolb was the starter - even before the Lions game! - and the repeat it on Monday at noon if he was already thinking about making Vick the starter. (Remember Andy said that he talked to Kolb about this over two days which - if true - would mean he was thinking about it on Monday.) This is a guy who never tips his hand, but he's going to stand there and make comments that don't need to be made (he could, and probably SHOULD have said they'd see how Kolb was progressing and reevaluate him before announcing the starter against the Jags) - instead he said tha Kolb would start. That was at 12:00 on Monday afternoon. But somehow by 5:00 Tuesday afternoon he'd had a complete change of heart and was SO adamant and SO convinced that starting Vick was the right move that he called another PC to take back what he said? Uh, sorry but I don't buy it.

            I think he spoke on Sunday hoping to avoid a QB controversy and planned to stick by it on Monday. I think Joe, or more likely Jeff, told him that they wanted Vick to start. Whoever decided this put Reid in a position where he went from naming Kolb the starter before the game Sunday to listening to trade overs for Kolb by Tuesday. That's just too much of a personality change for me to believe. Reid has ALWAYS stood by his players and taken the heat for them. I suspect he's doing the same for the people above him this time.
            Official Driver of the Eagles Bandwagon!!!
            Bleedin' Green since birth!

            "Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many." - Mike Willey

            ”Enjoy The Ride!!!” - Bob Marcus

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            • #7
              I'm pumped to see Vick and DeSean Jackson out there together on offense. They are going to light up the scoreboard.
              Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd kill you and everyone you cared about!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Leonard Tose View Post
                I'm pumped to see Vick and DeSean Jackson out there together on offense. They are going to light up the scoreboard.



                Let's hope it not like this!!
                Official Driver of the Eagles Bandwagon!!!
                Bleedin' Green since birth!

                "Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many." - Mike Willey

                ”Enjoy The Ride!!!” - Bob Marcus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Great points guys but I will add this.

                  1. Any team that the Eagles trade Kolb to if indeed they trade him is going to want the Birds to write a check for the Lion's share of the salary similar to what teams do in baseball.

                  2. In the last 10 years Trent Dilfer, Ben Rothlesberger in his second year, Tom Brady as a rookie, Kurt Warner as a nobody, and Steve McNair as a marginal passer got their teams to or won a Super Bowl. Vick could have that one out of his mind year where the stars seem to align. One thing is certain, his arm strength and mobility have NEVER held him back. It has always been his 10 cent head. So if that 10 cent head maybe has increased in value to a quarter maybe we can ride this guy into the playoffs and who knows... the NFC just isn't that impressive so far. Not saying it is going to happen but I think AR makes the right move here by letting Vick lose just to see what happens.
                  You know Darren if you'd have told me 10 years ago that someday I was going to solve the world's energy problems I'd have said your crazy.... now lets drop this big ball of oil out the window.

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                  • #10
                    yes, we certainly can catch lightning in a bottle as they say.

                    could you imagine if this is the year they do it after all these years of painstaking attention to The Plan?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by andrewaters View Post
                      Great points guys but I will add this.

                      1. Any team that the Eagles trade Kolb to if indeed they trade him is going to want the Birds to write a check for the Lion's share of the salary similar to what teams do in baseball.
                      I thought that wasn't allowed in football....
                      Official Driver of the Eagles Bandwagon!!!
                      Bleedin' Green since birth!

                      "Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many." - Mike Willey

                      ”Enjoy The Ride!!!” - Bob Marcus

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Leonard Tose View Post
                        I'm pumped to see Vick and DeSean Jackson out there together on offense. They are going to light up the scoreboard.
                        Agreed. People seem to forget that Vick had worse weapons in Atlanta than McNabb had early in his career.
                        Whatcha Gonna Do Brother, When the Eagles run wild on you?

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                        • #13
                          True enough, Leif and LT...but, McNabb had a better offensive line (Runyan, Fraley, Mayberry, Thomas, etc.). It's be interesting to see how this all trades off.

                          We can be sure that AR encouraged McNabb to go through his reads and only take off as a last resort. But now, for TDK, AR might be telling him, "All right, we want you to pass, but at the first sign of trouble, don't try to buy time. Get out of there, run for daylight, and slide before they can hit you."
                          "Philly fans are great....It's the only place where you pull up on the bus and you've got the grandfather, the grandmother, the kids and the grandkids - everybody flicking you off. At other stadiums, they give you the thumbs-down. Here, they give you the middle finger.”
                          — Michael Strahan

                          "No one likes us, no one likes us, no one likes us, we don’t care, we’re from Philly, F—-ing Philly, No one likes us, we don’t care!”
                          - Jason Kelce with the best championship speech ever

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by balto-eaglefan View Post
                            True enough, Leif and LT...but, McNabb had a better offensive line (Runyan, Fraley, Mayberry, Thomas, etc.). It's be interesting to see how this all trades off.

                            We can be sure that AR encouraged McNabb to go through his reads and only take off as a last resort. But now, for TDK, AR might be telling him, "All right, we want you to pass, but at the first sign of trouble, don't try to buy time. Get out of there, run for daylight, and slide before they can hit you."
                            Just this past game against Detroit, I saw Vick scramble and then pull up at the last second to fire it down field. That's something he hardly ever did in Atlanta. It was usually just look to see if Crumpler was open. No. Okay off to the races.
                            Whatcha Gonna Do Brother, When the Eagles run wild on you?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here's hoping we see more of that! If McGlynn and the rest keep having problems keeping the pressure away, I won't be surprised if they use a lot of rollouts to keep him on his feet......
                              "Philly fans are great....It's the only place where you pull up on the bus and you've got the grandfather, the grandmother, the kids and the grandkids - everybody flicking you off. At other stadiums, they give you the thumbs-down. Here, they give you the middle finger.”
                              — Michael Strahan

                              "No one likes us, no one likes us, no one likes us, we don’t care, we’re from Philly, F—-ing Philly, No one likes us, we don’t care!”
                              - Jason Kelce with the best championship speech ever

                              Comment

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