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Hey Football geeks!! - (Halladay update)

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  • #16
    sm - family is great! First day back at work...can't wait to see Mom/Baby in a bit...
    Carson Wentz ERA


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    • #17
      Originally posted by BIGPHILLY View Post
      sm - family is great! First day back at work...can't wait to see Mom/Baby in a bit...

      glad to hear it!

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      • #18
        Maybe we could only get Halladay if we give up Lee. This ruins my penciling in of the NL trophy.

        Damn, Lee was awesome for us last year.


        By the way, Boston got John Lackey? That's a hell of a rotation.

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        • #19
          Any speculation on what kind of prospects had to be added to this? Kind of sucks if we lose any key prospect AND Lee. Definitely takes some steam out of this.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by fly View Post
            Any speculation on what kind of prospects had to be added to this? Kind of sucks if we lose any key prospect AND Lee. Definitely takes some steam out of this.
            Michael Taylor is a goner from what I'm hearing.

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            • #21
              I hate this deal unless we also get Morrow from Seattle. Lee, Happ, Taylor etc. for Halladay? C'mon.
              Carson Wentz ERA


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              • #22
                Originally posted by BIGPHILLY View Post
                I hate this deal unless we also get Morrow from Seattle. Lee, Happ, Taylor etc. for Halladay? C'mon.
                I am going to try to defend the deal, with what we assume now, only because I dont feel like being negative;

                If you want to combine deals its:

                Lee / Drabek / Taylor / D'Arnaud

                For

                Halladay / Gillies(OF) / Aumont(P) / Ramirez(P)

                You can argue which package you think is better, but no one is going to know for atleast 5 seasons.

                It comes down to money - They must feel pretty confident they can not / will not sign Lee to the type of extension that Halladay will agree to, so how can you assure you are going to have an ace for the next 3 seasons? Make this deal and get Roy.

                You are not only getting Halladay, but also replenishing your farm system. Now apparrently the Phils guys "rate" or "grade" higher depend on what you read, BUT they are getting back pretty good prospects (allegedly) from Seattle who have just as much chance to make a difference as Drabek.

                I love LEE, but you cant be upset in losing him because of what he did in the postseason alone and project that into next year - how is that 2009 hamels working out for you?

                My complaint would be, I want to go into the season with Lee AND Halladay - but someone must have nixed that, and I can only assume it has to do with Payroll and in that sense Ruben should be held accountable for some of his contracts given out.

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                • #23
                  I see the logic and believe that having Halladay at the top of the rotation for tnext 4-5 years is a great thing.

                  That said - if you are giving up Drabek, we should be keeping Lee. To be giving up Lee/Drabek is steep.

                  The reports I've read on the 3 Mariner prospects are lukewarm.

                  And I'm with you. The team just sold out the entire season plus the maximum number of postseason games - and they are clenching their fists on keeping Lee for another year?
                  Carson Wentz ERA


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                  • #24
                    I freaking hate this trade as it is now being reported.

                    Drabek and Taylor and d'Arnaud to Toronto, for Halladay and 6m? Come on, that's what the Jays wanted last summer -- Halladay's value is lower now. I respect that his value increases when the trading team gives the acquirer a window to sign the prime target, but it's still way too much, IMO. Happ and Taylor should be plenty -- the Phillies have the leverage here.

                    And some lower tier SEA prospects (not as good as Drabek and Taylor, certainly), so we can get rid of Lee's 9m? Shoot, Lee is a bargain this year at 9m, even if you let him walk at the end of the year. Then you get two draft picks. Why take some of these SEA guys, who aren't even their top prospects? At least get Saunders and that middle infielder.

                    As much as I love getting Halladay for four years or so, this feels like a salary dump. They're sending extra value to TOR to get that 6m back. And they're dumping a GREAT pitcher in Lee who is signed for a bargain amount this year just to get that 9m off the books. Voila! There's the 15 plus million the Phils need to pay Halladay this year!

                    I'm really hating the Jamie Moyer contract more every day. No stupid two year deal for Moyer and that's 9m they dont have to worry about. Then you just dump Blanton and you've got the money you need for Halladay.

                    I will hate it less if Happ goes to TOR instead of Drabek.
                    Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd kill you and everyone you cared about!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 12dickau4pres View Post
                      I am going to try to defend the deal, with what we assume now, only because I dont feel like being negative;

                      If you want to combine deals its:

                      Lee / Drabek / Taylor / D'Arnaud

                      For

                      Halladay / Gillies(OF) / Aumont(P) / Ramirez(P)

                      You can argue which package you think is better, but no one is going to know for atleast 5 seasons.

                      It comes down to money - They must feel pretty confident they can not / will not sign Lee to the type of extension that Halladay will agree to, so how can you assure you are going to have an ace for the next 3 seasons? Make this deal and get Roy.

                      You are not only getting Halladay, but also replenishing your farm system. Now apparrently the Phils guys "rate" or "grade" higher depend on what you read, BUT they are getting back pretty good prospects (allegedly) from Seattle who have just as much chance to make a difference as Drabek.

                      I love LEE, but you cant be upset in losing him because of what he did in the postseason alone and project that into next year - how is that 2009 hamels working out for you?

                      My complaint would be, I want to go into the season with Lee AND Halladay - but someone must have nixed that, and I can only assume it has to do with Payroll and in that sense Ruben should be held accountable for some of his contracts given out.

                      You're not replenishing the farm system. Drabek and Taylor are probably Top 30 prospects in the entire league. They are two of our top 3 guys in the entire system.

                      The guys coming from SEA are lower tier prospects in their system, they are not the elite guys.

                      Plus, you are losing out on possibility of two top draft picks for losing Lee in free agency next year.
                      Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd kill you and everyone you cared about!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BIGPHILLY View Post
                        I see the logic and believe that having Halladay at the top of the rotation for tnext 4-5 years is a great thing.

                        That said - if you are giving up Drabek, we should be keeping Lee. To be giving up Lee/Drabek is steep.

                        The reports I've read on the 3 Mariner prospects are lukewarm.

                        And I'm with you. The team just sold out the entire season plus the maximum number of postseason games - and they are clenching their fists on keeping Lee for another year?
                        BP,

                        Despite the popular talk of the Phils becoming an 'empire' and despite the financial rewards driven directly by their success on the field, I'm reminded that they're are owned by the Phantom Five, who have a well established reputation for being both low profile (Dave Montgomery is just a front man) and cheap.

                        The Phillies certainly do not have either the enormous earning power or deep pockets of the Yankees, but it's my understanding that they've had a very BLACK bottom line recently and could well afford to expand the payroll and still make a decent profit.

                        If they've given up both Drabek and Taylor along with Lee for Halladay and some less stellar prospects, I'll be unhappy. Drabek OR Taylor maybe...but not both.

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                        • #27
                          I could be wrong, but the Moyer deal just sticks in my craw. His $8 million may have helped this whole deal go down different.

                          Losing Drabek really sucks.
                          www.disciplerocks.com

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by saratoga View Post
                            I could be wrong, but the Moyer deal just sticks in my craw. His $8 million may have helped this whole deal go down different.

                            Losing Drabek really sucks.
                            There was no point in signing Moyer. He will be useless in 2010 and was mostly useless in 2009. Terrible move there. That was Ruben right?

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                            • #29
                              Alright, here we go...

                              Originally posted by Leonard Tose View Post
                              I freaking hate this trade as it is now being reported.

                              Drabek and Taylor and d'Arnaud to Toronto, for Halladay and 6m? Come on, that's what the Jays wanted last summer -- Halladay's value is lower now. I respect that his value increases when the trading team gives the acquirer a window to sign the prime target, but it's still way too much, IMO. Happ and Taylor should be plenty -- the Phillies have the leverage here.
                              Depending on which reports you believe the Jays wanted Happ / Drabek / Brown for a season and a half, plus no money included, no negotiations and also dealing with Riccardi. Now does the deal above get Halladay at the trade deadline? I dont know who would know the answer to that.


                              Originally posted by Leonard Tose View Post
                              And some lower tier SEA prospects (not as good as Drabek and Taylor, certainly), so we can get rid of Lee's 9m? Shoot, Lee is a bargain this year at 9m, even if you let him walk at the end of the year. Then you get two draft picks. Why take some of these SEA guys, who aren't even their top prospects? At least get Saunders and that middle infielder.
                              I'm not going to pretend I know about the Seattle prospects, but I have hope. I believed Carrasco was going to be a strong number 2 and what happened when he went to AAA. Prospects have a good season and jump through the ranks - there is no reason to believe these seattle guys can not be ranked as high as Drabek in a season or two.

                              Originally posted by Leonard Tose View Post
                              As much as I love getting Halladay for four years or so, this feels like a salary dump. They're sending extra value to TOR to get that 6m back. And they're dumping a GREAT pitcher in Lee who is signed for a bargain amount this year just to get that 9m off the books. Voila! There's the 15 plus million the Phils need to pay Halladay this year!
                              It does feel like salary dump when every reporter tells you they could not AFFORD both - Lee was signed for a bargain THIS YEAR and Amaro made the decision to think about this year and beyond - would I love to go balls in for 2010 absolutely, but Amaro is thinking about the future

                              Originally posted by Leonard Tose View Post
                              I'm really hating the Jamie Moyer contract more every day. No stupid two year deal for Moyer and that's 9m they dont have to worry about. Then you just dump Blanton and you've got the money you need for Halladay.

                              I will hate it less if Happ goes to TOR instead of Drabek.
                              That Moyer contract is going to be stuff we make jokes about for years to come, hopefully Amaro learned his lesson, the difference between Moyer and Dawkins is that Dawkins can still play. I would also caution dumping Blanton, I would like to belive they tried and could not get any takers, plus he is still servicable.

                              Originally posted by Leonard Tose View Post
                              You're not replenishing the farm system. Drabek and Taylor are probably Top 30 prospects in the entire league. They are two of our top 3 guys in the entire system.

                              The guys coming from SEA are lower tier prospects in their system, they are not the elite guys.

                              Plus, you are losing out on possibility of two top draft picks for losing Lee in free agency next year.
                              They are losing prospects in Halladay and gaining prospects in Lee, I think that is the definition of replenishing.

                              Depending on what you read, Stark said this morning they are Seattles top prospects, maybe they are not as ML ready, but maybe in two years they are.

                              I think you are more concerned with Lee for a season, than you are geting the two draft picks. (as am I) I have no idea how the draft system works, its not like the NFL/NBA, but what is the difference between getting two picks and getting the Seattle guys?

                              Originally posted by saratoga View Post
                              I could be wrong, but the Moyer deal just sticks in my craw. His $8 million may have helped this whole deal go down different.

                              Losing Drabek really sucks.
                              Concur

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                              • #30
                                The Mariner prospects are better than you think. Gillies could be the real deal in this trade.

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