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  • Serious Question

    I was never a big fan of Michael Vick as far as the Ron Mexico stuff and dog fighting etc.

    This signing came out of left field and we'll see how it plays out on the field.

    As far as the actual outrage about his 2nd chance. I want to ask a serious question. Here's my logic:

    1) Michael Vick killed dogs cruelly
    2) Everyday 95% of Americans eat steak, chicken, fish, pork and love it. They line up at the trough of restaurants and dig in. Cows, chickens, pigs, you name it - are all slaughtered to allow us to eat to our heart's desires. They are slaughtered. Premeditated and planned.
    3) Leonard Little has been sacking QB's for a decade since he killed another human being. No protests I know of about that.
    4) Michael Vick served a very long jail sentence and lost 10's of millions of $'s. Legal experts have said he got LONGER than others would have gotten because of who he was

    So I ask you...

    Why can't Michael Vick be forgiven and allowed to play football again? What is the logic of people who say this is an outrage and he shouldn't be allowed to play because what he did to those dogs is beyond forgiveness? And if you think this way - why is a dog's life more important than the cow that was slaughtered for you to eat a cheesesteak at the Eagles game?
    Carson Wentz ERA


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  • #2
    BP - I think people have accepted the fact that there are some animals that are raised specifically to be slaughtered and eaten. Plus, a majority of people don't have cows as pets. People have a connection to dogs/cats/pets - They don't have a voice and people feel connected to them. You combine that, with the way he killed the dogs, plus his high profile status, plus his general "care free" attitude in the beginning of the investigation, thus people are outraged.

    As far Little - that is society, people don't care about drunk drivers, call your congressman, make the laws harsher.

    I will say, does anyone remember his "associates" the ones that did most of the killing and turned in the evidence to pin Vick? Where are they? a year in jail and they got on with their lives, but Vick can't?

    Comment


    • #3
      The Micheal Vick from 2 years ago was an immature asshole. However, he paid a steep price for his actions (compared to some others in the NFL).

      If Vick has really changed, then I am all for giving him another chance. And, this is a good place for him IMO from a support standpoint.

      As long as Vick stays humble, I think he will eventually win over the fans. But, he had better be very careful of his words and actions. Hanging around Donovan should help.

      This is going to be one crazy football season around here.

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with your view on society and how we stand.

        I think it's plain goofy to say that one animal is "human like" because they live in our homes - yet Cows are actually "animals".

        Talk about a relative judgment call. Some people have pigs as pets. Should we picket every NFL game all the time because players eat bacon?

        I'm serious on this.

        And - if people don't care about drunk drivers who kill humans but they care about someone who did something - albeit heinous beyond words - to animals - man. This is a messed up modern world we live in.
        Carson Wentz ERA


        NFC East Titles:
        Playoff Appearances:
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        Super Bowl Titles:

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BIGPHILLY View Post
          I was never a big fan of Michael Vick as far as the Ron Mexico stuff and dog fighting etc.

          This signing came out of left field and we'll see how it plays out on the field.

          As far as the actual outrage about his 2nd chance. I want to ask a serious question. Here's my logic:

          1) Michael Vick killed dogs cruelly
          2) Everyday 95% of Americans eat steak, chicken, fish, pork and love it. They line up at the trough of restaurants and dig in. Cows, chickens, pigs, you name it - are all slaughtered to allow us to eat to our heart's desires. They are slaughtered. Premeditated and planned.
          3) Leonard Little has been sacking QB's for a decade since he killed another human being. No protests I know of about that.
          4) Michael Vick served a very long jail sentence and lost 10's of millions of $'s. Legal experts have said he got LONGER than others would have gotten because of who he was

          So I ask you...

          Why can't Michael Vick be forgiven and allowed to play football again? What is the logic of people who say this is an outrage and he shouldn't be allowed to play because what he did to those dogs is beyond forgiveness? And if you think this way - why is a dog's life more important than the cow that was slaughtered for you to eat a cheesesteak at the Eagles game?
          Me personally, I can't forgive what he did.....this went back-and-forth months ago, about how there's just a double standard when it comes to some animals. He tortured the dogs for years, and it would've been different if he just had a job in the offseason working at a Tyson chicken factory, or hung out with Kevin Kolb hunting wild pigs and killing them with hunting knives (PETA would complain, but no one else would).

          Do I think that Vick should be allowed to play football? Yeah, he did his jail time, he lost all his money. But if I were an NFL owner, I wouldn't have wanted to sign him.
          "Philly fans are great....It's the only place where you pull up on the bus and you've got the grandfather, the grandmother, the kids and the grandkids - everybody flicking you off. At other stadiums, they give you the thumbs-down. Here, they give you the middle finger.”
          — Michael Strahan

          "No one likes us, no one likes us, no one likes us, we don’t care, we’re from Philly, F—-ing Philly, No one likes us, we don’t care!”
          - Jason Kelce with the best championship speech ever

          Comment


          • #6
            First, I don’t think Vick is a good QB. If another team wants to sign him, so be it. He should be allow to get another job. I don’t want him on the Eagles.

            Second, I pretty much buy into Reid’s stated philosophy of “character” guys. So I feel better cheering for his teams than if he ran his team like the Cowboys purposely signing criminals.

            Third, after Noah’s Flood, God gave man permission to eat meat. If I shoot a deer, my intention is to kill it quickly and have meat for my family. In our modern food processing society, I have a reasonable expectation that most places kill their animals quickly and relatively humanely. I understand that this is not going to be the case everywhere, but I accept that those in charge will be held accountable for their actions ultimately.

            The flip side of that is that God also told us to care for his creation. Torturing animals for entertainment violates that mandate. Vick’s actions do not equal a slaughterhouse selling beef.
            www.disciplerocks.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Toga -

              If you want to get biblical - Didn't Jesus also die for our sins and reconcile us with God based on the fact that we are all sinners and needed a Savior?

              Wouldn't Michael Vick qualify?

              Didn't Jesus eat with tax collectors and prostitutes and say he came to save the sick not the healthy?

              Didnt' Christ tell us to forgive and keep forgiving?

              Isn't Michael Vick entitled to the same forgiveness as you and I?

              (I would kindly ask that anyone who does not believe in the Bible not respond to this with "I don't believe in the Bible so I don't care". I'm responding to those who do)
              Carson Wentz ERA


              NFC East Titles:
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              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by saratoga View Post

                Second, I pretty much buy into Reid’s stated philosophy of “character” guys. So I feel better cheering for his teams than if he ran his team like the Cowboys purposely signing criminals.
                ^ This is a something I've been thinking about, I think the Eagles have lost all credibility when it comes to "character guys". I don't want to hear the terms "cancer", "bad guy" as an excuse why they can not sign/trade for someone. (example Randy Moss coming from Oakland). You pretty much lost that leg to stand on.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by BIGPHILLY View Post
                  2) Everyday 95% of Americans eat steak, chicken, fish, pork and love it. They line up at the trough of restaurants and dig in. Cows, chickens, pigs, you name it - are all slaughtered to allow us to eat to our heart's desires. They are slaughtered. Premeditated and planned.
                  I think the essential difference is that with cows, pigs, etc there is an attempt to minimize the animals suffering; what the dog fighters do is to revel in the suffering of animals. They put those dogs in the ring because they get off in seeing them hurt each other.

                  It's not even close to to the same thing.

                  But in answer to your question, I think Vick is a scumbag, but he did go to jail and do his time, so I think he has to get another chance.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would say the closest equivalents to dog fighting are bull fighting, cock fighting and greyhound racing off the top of my head...these are all "entertainment" for human audiences where animal cruelty/abusive training etc are inherent to the activity and where controversy hovers over them from a small portion of the larger society, but is generally ignored by the vast majority of us.

                    Bull fighting is a little different in that it is endorsed as a national tradition in Spain/Mexico whereas cock fighting, dog fighting and greyhound racing have smaller audiences and usually happen under cover as it were...

                    The point is these "activities" are different than the treatment of cows, pigs, sheep, chickens etc for the production of food humans live on and sell to other humans. Without the food production from animals, we would never have the complex society and culture we humans have today (we would not be able to sustain it) and our economy certainly would be greatly impacted...OTOH, if dog fighting vanished tomorrow, we would be BETTER off and it would have little/zero impact on us economically.

                    Dogs are a special case as well since they have become the most domesticated animal we humans know and we have welcomed them, along with cats probably 2nd, into our homes as members of the family and, yes, humanized them...I've had dogs all my life and love them (cats too) and thus the "crime" of dog fighting and the horrible aspects of their training, fighting and punishment for losing strike very close to home for humans...

                    Dog fighting is illegal and it should be, but in Vick's case he has paid the price for those crimes: he lost everything he had plus rotted in jail for almost 2 years...now he hs started the process of redemption and hopefully he will change and show us the good person/player he can be...
                    Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                    -Andy Reid

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 12dickau4pres View Post
                      ^ This is a something I've been thinking about, I think the Eagles have lost all credibility when it comes to "character guys". I don't want to hear the terms "cancer", "bad guy" as an excuse why they can not sign/trade for someone. (example Randy Moss coming from Oakland). You pretty much lost that leg to stand on.
                      Very good point. This actually made me wonder for a moment, "Somebody once wrote that Jerry Jones likes to sign "problem" guys because he likes being the guy who believes in them.......Terrell Owens and Pacman Jones to name two......so maybe this is the sort of thing that AR and Lurie had in mind?"

                      Still left shaking my head though, still hasn't sunk in.
                      "Philly fans are great....It's the only place where you pull up on the bus and you've got the grandfather, the grandmother, the kids and the grandkids - everybody flicking you off. At other stadiums, they give you the thumbs-down. Here, they give you the middle finger.”
                      — Michael Strahan

                      "No one likes us, no one likes us, no one likes us, we don’t care, we’re from Philly, F—-ing Philly, No one likes us, we don’t care!”
                      - Jason Kelce with the best championship speech ever

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BIGPHILLY View Post
                        I agree with your view on society and how we stand.

                        I think it's plain goofy to say that one animal is "human like" because they live in our homes - yet Cows are actually "animals".

                        Talk about a relative judgment call. Some people have pigs as pets. Should we picket every NFL game all the time because players eat bacon?

                        I'm serious on this.

                        And - if people don't care about drunk drivers who kill humans but they care about someone who did something - albeit heinous beyond words - to animals - man. This is a messed up modern world we live in.
                        I'm guessing that you didn't grow up with a dog for a pet Big Fella?
                        "Hey Giants, who's your Daddy?"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          He paid for his crimes in more ways than one. He deserves a chance to prove he has grown/changed/evolved into a better human being.

                          During his years with the Falcons, I personally never cared for Vick's attitude and antics. However, he has much to prove and the world to convince that he has been morally and socially rehabilitated.

                          I won't lock the door and throw away the key, but Michael Vick has a long way to go to win me over. One mis-step or even minor transgression and he's done, but I'm willing to give him that one chance...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Eagle60 View Post
                            I'm guessing that you didn't grow up with a dog for a pet Big Fella?
                            * I grew up with a siberian husky and cried like a baby when she died. I then had a golden retriever for 13+ years who I spent many days playing with at the beach in Avalon etc.

                            It's awful. What Vick did was heinous.

                            I just - seriously - don't get the relative nature of killing animals. Some matter and some don't.

                            I get the discussion about animal cruelty. It should be illegal. It should be punished. Should be jail time.

                            But - it seems so odd to me that people think killing animals for their food (Which I support - I'm going to eat steak for lunch) - and a dog being killed is somehow different. It's a life - if you are arguing for the value of a dog's life.

                            Now...the argument of cruelty and the darkness in Vick's soul and those he had been associated with is legit. That's where - did jail time, going bankrupt and so on - satisfy the crime.

                            I guess we'll just disagree on that.

                            (Lost in all of this is I have no idea why we need Vick. Can he play OT? Can he get pressure on the QB or play TE?)
                            Carson Wentz ERA


                            NFC East Titles:
                            Playoff Appearances:
                            NFC Title Games:
                            Super Bowl Titles:

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BIGPHILLY View Post
                              I was never a big fan of Michael Vick as far as the Ron Mexico stuff and dog fighting etc.

                              This signing came out of left field and we'll see how it plays out on the field.

                              As far as the actual outrage about his 2nd chance. I want to ask a serious question. Here's my logic:

                              1) Michael Vick killed dogs cruelly
                              2) Everyday 95% of Americans eat steak, chicken, fish, pork and love it. They line up at the trough of restaurants and dig in. Cows, chickens, pigs, you name it - are all slaughtered to allow us to eat to our heart's desires. They are slaughtered. Premeditated and planned.
                              3) Leonard Little has been sacking QB's for a decade since he killed another human being. No protests I know of about that.
                              4) Michael Vick served a very long jail sentence and lost 10's of millions of $'s. Legal experts have said he got LONGER than others would have gotten because of who he was

                              So I ask you...

                              Why can't Michael Vick be forgiven and allowed to play football again? What is the logic of people who say this is an outrage and he shouldn't be allowed to play because what he did to those dogs is beyond forgiveness? And if you think this way - why is a dog's life more important than the cow that was slaughtered for you to eat a cheesesteak at the Eagles game?

                              He has more than paid his debt to society. More than paid it. People are insane about dogs in this country.
                              Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd kill you and everyone you cared about!

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