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  • Hmm, have we had a

    discussion about guns here yet?

    Do guns kill people or people kill people?

    How do we protect our kids--- kill the 2nd amendment, limit the 2nd amendment- allow guns in schools with teachers hire ex police and Military to protect schools?

    Multi faceted subject..............................

  • #2
    Hmm, where is that pot to be stirred. Guns don't kill people. I have lots of guns. Pump, bolt action, semi auto. Rifles, pistols, shotguns. And none have killed any person yet.
    First, banks shouldn't make our banking laws, the pharmaceutical industry shouldn't make our drug and medical laws, and the NRA shouldn't make our gun laws. Our pussyass elected leaders have to have the guts to turn away from these people and make laws. I heard someone say last month in his meeting that the congress is afraid of the NRA and they shouldn't be. Yet he became afraid of the NRA within days.
    I always laugh when someone says something like people die from cars but we don't ask to ban cars because cars don't kill people. Of course we don't ban cars but we regulate them. We make rules for speed, we make rules for air bags, we make rules for who can drive them, etc. Hell you have to go through drivers ed and be licensed to drive a car. I'm not opposed to anyone buying a gun having to be licensed and trained.
    The right to bear arms doesn't mean we can't establish which arms. Hell you have the right to free speech but you can't say anything you want. Any hunter who can't hit his target with 5 or 7 rounds shouldn't be hunting. Anyone who is defending his property or family and can't hit his target with 5 or 7 rounds shouldn't be shooting. Of course you can and should limit magazine capacity and weapons. Personally I find shooting a fully automatic weapon a blast and enjoy the hell out of grenade launchers. But I don't see a need for people to own them. If you want to do those things join a gun club. Make laws establishing gun clubs where a person can go shoot any damn thing he wants. If we are going to call this gun program a sport make it like others and have places to do it.
    Who is an adult in this country. I can vote for a president who can send me to war but I can't drink a beer in a bar. I can't buy a pistol but I can buy shotguns and rifles with magazines that hold enough rounds to shoot an entire theater. Not saying we should up the age for assault rifles (which I still don't think anyone in the country can really define) nor am I saying we should lower the age for pistols and drinking. Just saying that we might want to debate the subject.
    Arming teachers ranks as one of the silly ideas. One, the vast majority of teachers say they don't want to be armed. Two, what happens when I respond to a school shooting and see six people with guns? Who is the bad guy? When I was in 6th grade at Holy Saviour Sister Catherine had a bottle in her desk drawer. Guess what happened when students found out. Bottle was gone. What happens when Mr. Smith leaves the gun in his desk. Maybe arm students and have a real OK Corral.
    School resource officers started out as a go between with students. They were making friends with students. Watching to see what students were doing what. Maybe the focus of what a school resource officer is should change. First they shouldn't be cops that are too old to be on the street. Every school should have armed (not necessarily open display of weapons) police. They should rotate out to their town police force on a regular basis maybe 60-90 days so that they don't get in a rut and they get back on patrol in order to keep up their training and skillset.
    I could go on for days. My concern is everyone is all crazy about schools but the discussion has to go beyond schools. What about next Weds night at the little league field, or Fri night at the movie theater, or Sat afternoon at the mall. This is a national discussion that should be had be our elected leaders with no outside influence. I don't think they have the wherewithal to do that.
    Wait until next year is a terrible philosophy
    Hope is not a strategy
    RIP

    Comment


    • #3
      Wow Nodak, I don't think I have ever typed that much in one post ... in my life. You must have good typing skills, I still only hunt and peck.

      1st let me say that I think we are pretty much in agreement here. Pretty much.

      The problem we get into is that this is a very BIG question with many moving parts, so it is hard to get anywhere without breaking it down a bit.

      let me say that after my Military days I never wanted to own a gun and I haven't, just my choice. My brother and father both had them, both long and pistols, but I just never felt the need. And we didn't hunt.

      After saying that I am a great believer in the 2nd (as I am in the entire constitution) and I do believe in peoples right to own them. I also believe that the Government also has a right to put "some" restrictions on them, as this is a very different world than what our forefathers could ever dream of.

      I also believe that guns don't kill people but people kill people.

      So with that in mind here is what I think---

      The age should be 21 for pistols, and 17(maybe even younger for hunting) with longs, but nobody needs to own bump stocks and or automatic weapons and large magazines ---- other than the military and law enforcement.

      I also firmly believe, 100%, that guns and gun laws are not the problem. People are, society is, the culture is almost 100% responsible for the carnage that we talk about.

      My reason is that no matter what gun laws are passed, no matter how stringent states become----- criminals do not care about such things, only law abiding people care about laws. And then that leaves the mentally unbalanced as the other "group" that commits these heinous acts... and they do not care about such "laws".

      Guns have been around and in great numbers(millions upon millions) and for years this kind of thing has been a rarity, very rare. But over the years our society has become desensitized, more callous, and less mindful of living beings. Fewer fathers in the homes, more children being left to their own devices and a myriad of other things that have changed in our culture over the last 50 to 60 years. Video games, graphic movies and tv have all played a part. so IMM while the guns have not changed----people have.

      I also blame part of this in our world of instants! The news coverage of these events, seems to me, to promote more of the same -- if attention is the required outcome-- the news often goes way over board, IMM in these cases.

      So while that is my "preface" if you will here is my "current" mindset on many of these issues.

      1. Protect schools/kids --- not by arming teachers (that is just dumb) but many Ex-Military men (screened), current and former cops, set a training course up for others that may be interested after extensive and real background and mental checks---- hire these people to protect our kids -- this "hardening" of our schools gets several things accomplished at the same time -- kids will no longer feel vulnerable, many many new jobs are created, teachers are left to teach---- and the biggest thing is that this will change the behavior of many of these off balance people. It in itself takes the opportunity go away which then drives down the attempts.

      2. I agree with the view that lobbyist have to much control of our policies and laws-- that includes the NRA --- but also places like Planned Parenthood that gets $500 million in taxpayers $. This is historic, so I am not so sure how to fix this other than get back to Regular budget orders where each department (closer to line item) gets it's appropriations, rather than these new "Omnibus" budgets where all these lobbyists get to ply there trade and all the gazillion amendments get attached to our budget bill. But IMM this is a "Government/Polictical issue not just a gun issue.

      3. Next, while I appreciate your automobile coloration-- there are some actual facts and truths that need to be talked about and understood--- Guns are used in many deaths in this country-- the vast majority though are used in suicides, another method could/would be found if the guns were removed. Next knives --- knife deaths are thousands of times more than gun deaths are... but there is no movement to ban or create laws for knives. And yes while the knife is not likely to be the weapon for "mass" deaths -- shouldn't all deaths be considered?
      Along the same lines--- deaths from drug related uses are thousands of times higher than gun murders are -- yet while we claim to regulate many of these killer drugs (opioids and the like) ---- Do we really? I think we could find a hundred ways to limit the uses of these "drugs" --- but we do very little about it.

      So in my mind --- there are some concrete things we CAN do to save lives--( and isn't that the real goal?) but must be willing to do them, and IMM it all comes back to "the Swamp" and society itself and how civilization in this country is moving away from it's basic tenets.

      Welcome all feedback --- well mostly all.

      Comment


      • #4
        Like anything political why should this subject make sense? You both made more sense than any politician ever did. We have a cop in every high school around here and there hasn't been a shooting. Trump makes sense when he says "no guns zone" posted all over the place makes the schools an easy target. I think it would be a good deterrent if it were announced that teachers are armed but I would not want most teachers armed. Even when there is a policeman is in a school daily it wouldn't hurt if a few dropped by the schools once a week at random just to show a presence.

        Why aren't gun laws regulated? Every other fucking thing in the country is. If the NRA doesn't like it tough fucking shit. Get some fucking balls Washington. As usual Democrats want every gun in the world destroyed and Republicans want every citizen to carry a bazooka. There is no such thing as compromise and as a result don't expect anything to change.
        "Hey Giants, who's your Daddy?"

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        • #5
          Hell, I would have 2 if not maybe 3 armed personnel in every school..... And I mean IN the school.

          Comment


          • #6
            These assholes just approved a 1.3 TRILLION $ budget, that is $ 1,300,000,000,000 .... Let that sink in........ Think they could have taken a spare half a billion (same as they gave to planned parenthood) to protect the schools??? And save lives???

            The swamp is still alive and well! And we are all gonna pay for it....... At least my grand kids will have to.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MDFAN View Post
              These assholes just approved a 1.3 TRILLION $ budget, that is $ 1,300,000,000,000 .... Let that sink in........ Think they could have taken a spare half a billion (same as they gave to planned parenthood) to protect the schools??? And save lives???

              The swamp is still alive and well! And we are all gonna pay for it....... At least my grand kids will have to.
              Yep, that getting rid of the swamp was nonsense from the beginning. Everyone's spending is the most important spending there is while everyone else's spending is nonsense. Everyone has to make sure their career politician job is safe in this election year. Everyone thinks their elected representatives are good and it is the other elected people who won't do their job. Bull-- all of them play the same game. Deficits are headed back over a trillion dollars.
              Cuts hurt. Sequestration hurts. But the hurt is only going to get harder. The knuckleheads that each and every one of us put in DC are going to make the lives of our children and grandchildren worse.
              Just not sure where in the hell we are going to find 350 people that can get elected to go to DC and fix it
              Wait until next year is a terrible philosophy
              Hope is not a strategy
              RIP

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, term limits would be a starting point.

                Getting back to "regular" order in getting budgets done would also be a starting point. And finding a way to limit "pork" and add on's to spending bills would help tremendously.

                After saying that--- I still think that the robust economy, the new corporate tax rate, and some tariffs may help shrink that deficit by a lot.... but only time will tell on that. But even if we do that --- these assholes will find ways to spend it all anyhow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As for the guns we are probably much closer than one would think; enough to get some stuff done but probably not other stuff. Unfortunately if we were elected officials that would be enough to keep us from doing anything. I really think they have to look at each individual part while keeping in mind the whole.
                  I agree with bump stocks, automatics, etc except I believe gun ranges should be able to have stuff like that in order for people to go enjoy the experience. People shouldn't own them, the club should own them. If you can afford to join a club you can do it just like golfing or anything else.
                  I'm not sure why an age difference in pistols and long guns. Just as I'm not sure why a military guy can't drink a beer.
                  I 100% agree about society. There was a time when kids were raised playing outside. Then kids were set in front of a TV and raised by watching TV shows. Then video games raised kids. For far too many family went to hell. No fathers or both parents work because they need the money or want too much money or just don't want to stay at home. The last isn't a popular thing to say but I think far too many women would rather be in the work place with other people than be at home with a kid.
                  I agree we can do stuff for schools. I agree having some armed people in the school is a good thing. But I don't think 70 year old retired cops and military are the answer. Sure they are cheaper and more affordable but I have seen far too many federal buildings with a 70 year old guy sitting there who couldn't do crap if needed. But I also think this discussion has to go beyond schools.
                  And I also will say as I often do that freedom isn't free. It is a clever saying for those sunshine soldiers that want to portray how much they love the military but people don't really want to live it. Sometimes people die because we have rights and freedom. Is there a cost in lives that we would be okay with in order to protect our right to bear arms? Is 100 deaths okay? How about 500? I'm free to drink but sometimes people die. I'm free to drive but sometimes people die. I'm free to have an abortion but some say a person dies (although I don't believe that). I'm free to ski down big ass hills but sometimes people die. I do think there has to be an acceptance that people die. At the same time I think the country has every right, and in fact a duty, to put reasonable regulations in place to help prevent deaths.
                  Oh well that took far too long to write
                  Wait until next year is a terrible philosophy
                  Hope is not a strategy
                  RIP

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry just a quick rebuttal-- I wasn't thinking 70 year old guys, I was thinking more like guys coming out after 20 years, or even guys coming out after 6 or 10 years in, or cops who retire after 20, or training firefighters or even offering a FT, serious training course, with extreme vetting for anybody over 30 for the schools. I meant these positions to be FT, regular jobs.

                    We can afford it.

                    I also fully agree that in life there are risks and death-- and we can not prevent all --- and IMM--- it isn't in the end, Gun laws (that idiots and crimminals really done; care about at all) or more regulations that will fix this problem, as we just saw in Texas, bombs kill, and cars Kill, and knives kill, hell even falling bridges kill people ----- there will always be death.

                    Nothing can be regulated in order to stop deviant mental health!

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