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  • Joe Gibbs

    I think we may legitimately be at least halfway through Gibbs' second tour of duty with the Skins to where we could try a "midterm evaluation".

    Several Philly phans were scared about Gibbs' return in ways we were not when Parcells came back to Dallas. Maybe we had seen enough of Parcells since the heyday of the late 80's to know that he would make teams good without necessarily giving them a guaranteed ring and likely leave them a mess after bolting.

    Many people were entertaining visions of counter tre's sweeping through the NFC East en route to an improbable Super Bowl win no matter what mercenary or scrub QB was put into mix, and the fear was slightly compounded by how well the D played under Gregg Williams the first year with practically no names other than Sean "yellow flag or burnt toast" Taylor.

    At this point, how would you rate Gibbs' coaching of the team? They seemed really flat and timid all day Sunday, even when they were legitimately in the game. No deep passes, and few convincing strings of run plays all day. Basically, uninspired play. I've only watched 2 other Skins games all year, and one of them wasn't the weird comeback win vs. Dallas which may have changed my perception.

    Do you think most of the blame falls squarely on Snyder's roster management, or is Gibbs just not the overacheiver he was when he first came into the league and supposedly invented the practice of staying up until 4 am looking at tape and getting up 2 hours later to look at more and gameplan perfectly with a supportive regime willing to spend?

    Or is there an argument that Gibbs is just not cut out to manage a dominant team under this owner in this current era of the NFL, and/or his heart is simply not in it the way it was in the 80's and early 90's? How much longer do you give him after this season now that they are almost guaranteed a losing record?

    I feel the same way in many aspects re: Parcells with different factors; I'd be very surprised if either coach is still in their respective places beyond next season, and would NOT be surprised to see at least one of them quit/retire/"resign" this offseason.

    Thoughts? Comparisons / Contrasts?

  • #2
    I always thought the first Gibbs era was built through the draft and key trades. The Skins were the masters of stashing players on IR to develop them. I thought that is why the practice squad came into play because of Gibbs' tricks. I also thought that he and Ritchie Pettibon were the best coaches at making in game and especially half time adjustments. I just don't think he came back with his heart in it. he saw a dying franchise and hoped he could revived it. Unfortunately the win the SB every year mentality in DC land and especially with Snyder has killed that team. Until they blow it up and start building through the draft they will forever be a laughing stock. This isn't baseball.
    I miss Philly!

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    • #3
      First, I think we're a lot further than the mid point. If Gibbs comes back next year, I'll be surprised.

      I think you'll see the, "It's on me, I'm just not getting it done, time to move on" press conferences at some point after this season.

      Daniel Snyder is the heart of the Redskins operation, and the guy just flat doesn't have a clue how to build a winning organization. That FO is as bad as any in the league, yet, because they spend money hand over fist, they always grab the attention in the offseason. But, they are a very bad FO, make no mistakes. That's one thing I'll give Lurie, I think he tried to play that game early in his ownership, and just about the time the Mamula pick went south, he realized he should delegate football matters, and it has served us well. Snyder hasn't realized that yet. And he never will.

      So, Gibbs went from having a great football mind at the pinnacle of his career in Bobby Beathard, along with the pre-FA NFL, to coaching in modern times under an owner with unparalled f'ckupability factor.

      Being away for so long, along with all that Snyder Power in the FO was just too much to overcome. I respect Gibbs, but he needs to go back to NASCAR and turn that trainwreck over to someone who is not as old, and in better health. He looks like the job is killing him.

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      • #4
        It's a combination of three things.

        1. Snyder is a meddler in every aspect of the business. He's the classic micromanager.
        2. Vinny Cerrato is an absolute bum when it comes to identifying talent.
        3. Gibbs is not as hands on as he used to be, and relies on Al Saunders and Gregg Williams to run the show. He doesn't have the passion any longer, and every week you can see it on his face.

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        • #5
          I agree with EB that Gibbs is pretty close to the end of his term...icon or not the progress is not happening.

          I agree with LG on his 3 factors...meddling owner, bad GM and a "all-star" lineup of coaches is not the way to build a winning organization...

          Was Childress a superstar? JJ? Harbaugh? Reid? Banner? Heckert?

          No....they all BECAME superstars here together based on their performance, collaboration and success...

          I would add several things EB hinted at too as very important factors...

          1. Salary cap
          2. Free agency
          3. Player agent power
          4. Media focus

          Gibbs was always the general, but had his captains run the ship...he was the project manager yet had division heads handle the day to day, week to week issues...

          That approach is dead in today's NFL IMO...Reid sleeps in his office 3-4X a week, the coaches eat, drink and sleep football year round with few exceptions...you need a cap guru, you need a very good GM, you need good talent evaluators and you need rock solid ownership...all on the SAME page moving forward...the Redskins have not had that...since...well Joe Gibbs 1.
          Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

          -Andy Reid

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          • #6
            I know one thing, DT's are too fast these days for the pure Counter-Trey to work...

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            • #7
              I was going to mention Bethard as well, EB. Gibbs was a very good football mind for the time. He MIGHT be able to do it again. However, the team is constructed differently including the staff. He didn't have Snyder monkeying with things. I gave Bethard a LOT of the credit for their success as well. But also Gibbs doesn't have the QB he did back then. Brunell is a once-mobile QB who has a fairly weak arm. Neither Rypien nor Williams were QBs who moved much, Thiesman moved wel IN the pocket (probably should have moved before LT got to him) but that had big time arms to get the ball sown the field. Smash you with a power run game, and take deep shots down field when you came up to stop it. That was Gibbs formula, and t worked.

              So, he doesn't have the QB that fits his system, plus although Portis can run with a bit of power, he has been dinged much of this year, and may now be DONE. Last year they rode Portis to the playoffs.

              So, mix in terrible ownership, poor GM-ing, the wrong pieces for the scheme, and you wind up with a fairly talented, yet underachieving and overly mediocre club and record.
              http://shop.cafepress.com/content/global/img/spacer.gifOK, let's try this again...

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              • #8
                Well I do know one thing Fresh, Theisman was much less mobile after LT got to him.

                How many SB rings did the redskins fans predict when it was announced Gibbs was back. That truly has me laughing my ass off.

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                • #9
                  It's tough to win without a QB. If they ever get one, look out.
                  "Hey Giants, who's your Daddy?"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eagle60
                    It's tough to win without a QB. If they ever get one, look out.
                    Even if they get one, they will still be paying a lot of big names acquisitions that don't have any chemistry.

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                    • #11
                      It's tough to win without a QB. If they ever get one, look out.
                      I think it's tough to win in todays NFL in general. People assume that just because a few teams happen to do it often (the Eagles are included in that group as well mind you), that the majority of the teams do it. I tend to disagree; I believe building a winning tradition takes much more than finding a QB. One VITAL part of that is the QB, there's no denying that. However, there are teams who have a QB, yet they stink. There are teams who don't have a QB, yet they win SBs (unless you consider Dilfer a QB).

                      The point is that you build a winning tradition by keeping your system stable, make sure you balance things out, and most importantly, teach your players the fundamentals of winning.

                      The Foreskins so far don't know how to win, don't know how to balance their team, and most importantly, while they seem to recognize their deficiencies, they tend to overlook them.

                      The Cowboys aren't far behind mind you, perhaps the only team in the NFC East actually who did that are the Giants (partially). The Cowboys needed OL help - they go out and sign a WR (even though they have two relatively good ones), sign a FA LB and draft a LB. The Giants needed secondary help, and drafted a DE (although maybe he'll pan out).

                      At least the Eagles filled their needs through the draft correctly, even if their picks don't pan out.
                      "You will dress only in attire specially sanctioned by P.E. special services… You are no longer part of the system. You are above the system, over it, beyond it. We're "them." We're "they." We are the Men in Green."

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sfphillyfan
                        Originally posted by Eagle60
                        It's tough to win without a QB. If they ever get one, look out.
                        Even if they get one, they will still be paying a lot of big names acquisitions that don't have any chemistry.
                        Win a few games and all of a sudden you have chemistry. For such a brutal sport, it's really amazing how fragile teams are. Teams can loose it in a hurry. Look at Pittsburg and Cinncy.
                        "Hey Giants, who's your Daddy?"

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                        • #13
                          Gibbs won three Superbowls but two were strike years. Also this is a QB driven league. Most of the really good teams have really good QB's or great defense. The Skins don't have a very good QB and their defense has been bad this year and a bit overated last year (though good).

                          In Gibbs first tenure, he did not get the players, now he does (with some help from little Napolian).

                          I won't be suprised if he retires at the end of the season.

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