JJ sure loves his veterans

[Leonard Tose]

Not too many drafted players on the front 7 seem to thrive "growing up" under JJ. trent cole. maybe gaither and patterson. we'll see about them. burgess.

otherwise, it's a host of acquired veterans -- kearse, howard, wayne, simoneau, trotter, barber, kirkland, dhani jones, walker, emmons, hugh douglas -- who play key roles on JJ's front 7. now spikes.

drafted youngsters like gardner, mccoy, caver, mcdougle, bunkley, gocong -- they're either washouts or "draft and follow" types, to borrow a baseball term. we're waiting for bunkley and gocong to get up to speed and hoping they'll be good.

i recognize it's a complex defense and some guys just can't deal with the terminology. but i think it's safe to conclude at this point that JJ doesn't really like to throw young guys into his scheme right away unless they're in the secondary.

[Vote for Kalas]

Re: JJ sure loves his veterans

Not too many drafted players on the front 7 seem to thrive "growing up" under JJ. trent cole. maybe gaither and patterson. we'll see about them. burgess.

otherwise, it's a host of acquired veterans -- kearse, howard, wayne, simoneau, trotter, barber, kirkland, dhani jones, walker, emmons, hugh douglas -- who play key roles on JJ's front 7. now spikes.

drafted youngsters like gardner, mccoy, caver, mcdougle, bunkley, gocong -- they're either washouts or "draft and follow" types, to borrow a baseball term. we're waiting for bunkley and gocong to get up to speed and hoping they'll be good.

i recognize it's a complex defense and some guys just can't deal with the terminology. but i think it's safe to conclude at this point that JJ doesn't really like to throw young guys into his scheme right away unless they're in the secondary.

I disagree...

Simon is the biggest poke hole in your theory...he was a 1st round pick who was a fixture here for years...contract issues were the reason he left...

Patterson is the same pattern...Bunkley, if he pans out, will be as well.

Cole and Thomas are young guys...Burgess probably would still be here if he had not lost 2 seasons to injury and then been blown out of the water by the Raiders after a nice playoff run...

Rayburn and Walker were both brought here as young guys and stayed for years...

Trot was our draft pick and, again, if not for contract issues would have stayed here for his entire career IMO...Gaither, McCoy will be here for years IMO. We will see about Gocong.

You have mentioned the secondary which is all homegrown and young besides James (NYG) and Dawk (older).

Vets are brought in to provide leadership, structure for the young guys and experience along with talent...the Eagles have done very well at overturning the roster almost completely while still winning at a high level besides 2005...

[Pedro]

LT,
I will not get into whether you are right or wrong, but I do have issues with you using several young guys for your argument. McCoy started and played well, until the injury. Gocong can't be used because he hasn't gotten to play. That would be like calling Andrews a washup after his first year. Bunkley played in the goal line D and did pretty good. He just ahs to learn his job in the protection and gap defenses. He is too young to put in any category.

The other problem is you labeled guys who have not acheived or were bad in the vet group....Simmy, Wayne, Jones, Kirkland, etc. I agree that JJ maight want them for their experience, but as many fans point out, none of them proved any better than rookies. I just think these guys were quick fixes, in hope that the draft picks would pan out. SInce they didn't (Caver, Gradner, etc) they had to bring in more quick fixes. Throw in the lack of monetary commitment to the position and you have a recipe for failure. But, I don't think they worry about failure at that position as much as you DE and Corners failing....like in the past. We still made it to the playoffs without Kearse and McNabb with those bargain basement linebackers. Would we make it with bargain basement DE's and corners? I don't think so.

I will agree that JJ has NOT developed his own linebackers, but hopefully McCoy, Gaithers and Gocong can change that. It is the first time since the Trotter and Gardner draft that we tried to fix that position.

[Leonard Tose]

Re: JJ sure loves his veterans

[quote=Vote for Kalas]

Not too many drafted players on the front 7 seem to thrive "growing up" under JJ. trent cole. maybe gaither and patterson. we'll see about them. burgess.

otherwise, it's a host of acquired veterans -- kearse, howard, wayne, simoneau, trotter, barber, kirkland, dhani jones, walker, emmons, hugh douglas -- who play key roles on JJ's front 7. now spikes.

drafted youngsters like gardner, mccoy, caver, mcdougle, bunkley, gocong -- they're either washouts or "draft and follow" types, to borrow a baseball term. we're waiting for bunkley and gocong to get up to speed and hoping they'll be good.

i recognize it's a complex defense and some guys just can't deal with the terminology. but i think it's safe to conclude at this point that JJ doesn't really like to throw young guys into his scheme right away unless they're in the secondary.

I disagree...

Simon is the biggest poke hole in your theory...he was a 1st round pick who was a fixture here for years...contract issues were the reason he left...

Patterson is the same pattern...Bunkley, if he pans out, will be as well.

Cole and Thomas are young guys...Burgess probably would still be here if he had not lost 2 seasons to injury and then been blown out of the water by the Raiders after a nice playoff run...

Rayburn and Walker were both brought here as young guys and stayed for years...

Trot was our draft pick and, again, if not for contract issues would have stayed here for his entire career IMO...Gaither, McCoy will be here for years IMO. We will see about Gocong.

You have mentioned the secondary which is all homegrown and young besides James (NYG) and Dawk (older).

Vets are brought in to provide leadership, structure for the young guys and experience along with talent...the Eagles have done very well at overturning the roster almost completely while still winning at a high level besides 2005...[/quote:4e2b2]

forgot about simon.

trotter was our pick, but he was groomed by ray rhodes, not JJ, so you can't count him as a guy who grew up under JJ, IMO.

i still contend that the vets are not there to "provide leadership" for the young guys on the front 7, but are the guys JJ depends on the most.

[Leonard Tose]

LT,
I will not get into whether you are right or wrong, but I do have issues with you using several young guys for your argument. McCoy started and played well, until the injury. Gocong can't be used because he hasn't gotten to play. That would be like calling Andrews a washup after his first year. Bunkley played in the goal line D and did pretty good. He just ahs to learn his job in the protection and gap defenses. He is too young to put in any category.

The other problem is you labeled guys who have not acheived or were bad in the vet group....Simmy, Wayne, Jones, Kirkland, etc. I agree that JJ maight want them for their experience, but as many fans point out, none of them proved any better than rookies. I just think these guys were quick fixes, in hope that the draft picks would pan out. SInce they didn't (Caver, Gradner, etc) they had to bring in more quick fixes. Throw in the lack of monetary commitment to the position and you have a recipe for failure. But, I don't think they worry about failure at that position as much as you DE and Corners failing....like in the past. We still made it to the playoffs without Kearse and McNabb with those bargain basement linebackers. Would we make it with bargain basement DE's and corners? I don't think so.

I will agree that JJ has NOT developed his own linebackers, but hopefully McCoy, Gaithers and Gocong can change that. It is the first time since the Trotter and Gardner draft that we tried to fix that position.

i dont think mccoy will ever be any more than a fill-in and special teams guy. he was a 2nd round pick.

i didn't call gocong a washout -- i called him a "draft and follow" player. that's what he and bunkley are. they struggled in the system last year. gocong was essentially redshirted because of that.

the fact is they have or had a series of high-round picks -- mcdougle, bunkley, gocong, mccoy, gardner, caver -- who have yet to show anything as Eagles. the number of washouts or draft-and-follow guys are equal to the solid performers drafted -- simon, cole, burgess (for limited periods), maybe gaither and patterson.

i believe JJ relies on the aforementioned veteran acquisitions to anchor his front 7. kind of reminds me of george allen that way.