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  • #31
    IMK, you don't think that a slimmed down McNabb, reportedly in the best shape of his career, is going to be a good enough runner to warrant spies anymore? I disagree. I think he could be just as dangerous.

    They reason they won't spy him isn't because of ability, it's because everyone knows he WANTS to stay in the pocket, unlike early in his career when he was more easily flushed.

    So, the only way to get teams to fear his running again is to do it ON PURPOSE.
    http://shop.cafepress.com/content/global/img/spacer.gifOK, let's try this again...

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    • #32
      It not really that he wants to stay in the pocket for his own reasons, Fresh....its that the pocket is where you run the offense from and that is what the Eagles need McNabb to do...

      This has zero to do IMO with the infamous charge against McNabb that he does not run simply to anger Eagles fans and shove it in people's faces that he is more than a "running QB"...I think that is laughable and always have.

      No, this is what the Eagles/Reid want him to do and what they talk about when they discuss complete WCO QBs...a guy who is in full command of the entire system, who can orchestrate the entire offense to whatever circumstances demand...if a team overplays the WR/TE and we need to run the ball more, so be it...if teams load up to stop the run and we can adjust to a short passing game, so be it...if they clog the middle, especially with a 3-4 defense, then we need to go deep, stretch the field and run it down their throat, so be it....AND if McNabb running gives us an advantage, so be it...

      McNabb has already evolved into this complete QB...now we just need health and the rest of the unit to play to their potential and this offense will be scary again...he was flushed early in his career because he had not made the transition yet and defenses knew it...they spied him because that was his best skill and they knew he was unlikely to make them pay for the spy via the passing game...they would never spy him now because he would shred them IMO...
      Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

      -Andy Reid

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      • #33
        Vote, I think that DOnny always KNEW he could run, that was a given. But he wanted to prove not only to everyone else, but to HIMSELF that he could become a learned, effective pocket QB. It's a skill he needed to develop and improve on, and he has spent a lot of efort to tha end. Good. That's what he needed to do. But if you don't think that he had begun passing up on opportunities to run when he would have ben wise to do so, I don't know what to say to you. Last year he was dealing with injuries, but even before that his will to take off was weaning.

        Overall, I think it's been a good thing. He's a more well-rounded QB for it. But he neds to now take advantage of ALL of his assets to the fullest, and that included the lethal weapon that are his legs.
        http://shop.cafepress.com/content/global/img/spacer.gifOK, let's try this again...

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        • #34
          lol...I guess we are going in circles here...

          I disagree again that McNabb purposefully said he was going to stop running when in fact he has never stopped running....the only thing that has changed is the focus or tendency of it...

          That is the key...it is now part of the total package rather than most of the package...it is now when the offense needs him to, not for the lack of knowing what else to do to be successful...or not being able to execute from the pocket...

          He now has control of everything he can do and knows when to do it including running...he will do it as he has every year, but he will never do it as much as he did early on and defenses will never spy him again IMO...he is not that player any longer and defenses know now that he can kill them in multiple ways...

          I think also part of this is a recognition and trust that has developed between McNabb and his skill players which has been fostered by Reid...McNabb trusts now that he can run the offense and the team will win, he does not have to do everything himself, he has other players who can perform very well...that is another component of becoming a complete QB IMO...he trusts the system he is in, knows it cold and can bend it to any situation...
          Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

          -Andy Reid

          Comment


          • #35
            As an SU alumnus, "65", I have been following Donnie since the get-go. I am convinced that this well, spoken, fun-loving, easy going man has a fire for excellence that burns in him. He has paid his dues learning and this year he is motivated beyond description to step it up yet further. Neither he nor Andy are big braggers and talkers, they just go out and do what they can to the best of their ability. My gut tells me the chances are high that we see Donnie's flame burn higher and brighter than ever this season. He's that kind of guy.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
              Well, I do not buy that he has to do it to be successful (sic: running)
              Again, you're twisting what I'm and others are saying into something we really aren't saying.

              No one has even suggested that he won't and or can't be successful if he doesn't run -- only saying that it's part of his game, it's a compliment toward to his game, it's using all of the god given talent, it's an extra that will help him and the team.

              It's an extra element that DC's will have to prepare for-- doesn't take away from whatever he can accomplish from the pocket--- in fact, IMO, it will only enhance his ability to be that great pocket passer cause it will slow up some of the pressure.

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              • #37
                I thought you stated he needed to run it at least a prescribed number of times per game for the defenses to have that seed planted in their minds and to play our offense more honestly?

                If that is the case, I would assume his "success" depends on that working from your perspective since the implicit part of that statement is that defenses will NOT respect our offense as much if he does not run it those prescribed amount of times...and thus they will be able to shut it down easier somehow.

                Perhaps I am reading too much into your statements, but that is what it sounds like to me...IMO he does not have to run at all to be successful as long as he executes the offense correctly and everyone else in the unit performs their jobs up to their potential...I think he should only run when he has to as a last resort on a broken play for example or as the end result of a scramble where no one comes open...now he/Reid may have a different view, they may want to add in designed plays of him running and that is fine IMO....I do not really believe it adds much and I do believe the tradeoff of an injury is not worth it, but I trust them and believe McNabb understands when a run works and when it does not by now....

                Everything else you wrote about running being an extra weapon and a compliment to our offense I have agreed with all along...except that given the choice, I would rather him throw a TD to Brown or LJ or let Westy/Moats run one to the house...
                Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                -Andy Reid

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                • #38
                  Bottom Line...

                  I think the bottom line of this argument comes to whether or not Donovan does not run because he doesn't want to be called a running QB or not.

                  Because clearly, he's a complete QB. Good passer, fairly accurate, great at buying time, great at throwing in motion, and perhaps the strongest arm in the NFL. His decision making sometimes comes under scrutiny, but which QB's isn't?

                  Other than that, there's nothing we can blame/ask from McNabb. If the reason he's not running is NOT his desire to not be called a running QB, then it's clearly because, (a)he saw (rightfully or wrongly) a beter play developing through an open teammate, (b) he didn't have any running lanes so decided to hold the ball until someone gets open, and (c), Reid instructed him not to.

                  If it's any of these three, then I am okay with Donovan.

                  But if it's because he's prejudiced against the run, then he may have a problem.
                  "You will dress only in attire specially sanctioned by P.E. special services… You are no longer part of the system. You are above the system, over it, beyond it. We're "them." We're "they." We are the Men in Green."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by VFK

                    I thought you stated he needed to run it at least a prescribed number of times per game for the defenses to have that seed planted in their minds and to play our offense more honestly?
                    No!

                    Maybe I could rephrase your pov---- to be saying that he is as successful as he can be so running would not help him or the team win more games??????? LOL

                    Never, ever said he couldn't be successful if he didn't run more,,, only ever said that he could be MORE successful if he did.

                    And why wouldn't we want him to be MORE successful?

                    I have always said, from year one ODM (Of DM), that it would help his game, help him to be successful if he ran a couple a times early in most games-- enough so that the DC's would be forced to think about it and take some time to account for it, thus lowering the time to be able to plan a D without worrying about any runs.

                    And thus IMO affecting the types of D he see's, the D can not just pin it's ears back and come after him as they have done for the last few years, as his number of runs have declined.

                    Originally posted by VFK
                    Perhaps I am reading too much into your statements
                    YES, you are.

                    Very simple premise that hasn't changed since 2000,,,"DM, please run early, and add to your game and don't let that god given talent be wasted, it will improve your over all game and give nightmares to opposing DC's."

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                    • #40
                      Re: Bottom Line...

                      Originally posted by fanofthegame76
                      I think the bottom line of this argument comes to whether or not Donovan does not run because he doesn't want to be called a running QB or not.

                      Because clearly, he's a complete QB. Good passer, fairly accurate, great at buying time, great at throwing in motion, and perhaps the strongest arm in the NFL. His decision making sometimes comes under scrutiny, but which QB's isn't?

                      Other than that, there's nothing we can blame/ask from McNabb. If the reason he's not running is NOT his desire to not be called a running QB, then it's clearly because, (a)he saw (rightfully or wrongly) a beter play developing through an open teammate, (b) he didn't have any running lanes so decided to hold the ball until someone gets open, and (c), Reid instructed him not to.

                      If it's any of these three, then I am okay with Donovan.

                      But if it's because he's prejudiced against the run, then he may have a problem.

                      I think it's the last thing you said. He is prejudiced against the run because he didn't want to be labeled as a "running/athletic QB" which has been the "knock" against black quarterbacks. The traditional thinking was that blacks weren't smart enough to read defenses and guide a team and hence could never be a good QB. So I think DMac goes out of his way to prove this wrong. After the whole Rush Limbaugh thing, who can blame him? So to the detriment of the team, DMac prefers to be a "pocket passer". Now, I'm not saying he should by any means become Michael Vick (please god no) but i think he does have a little hangup about running.

                      And if anyone thinks that McNabb or any black QB in the league doesn't conciously think about the whole black QB race issue, then you live in a very idealistic world. Hell, it's the same reason Kordell Stewart hated being "slash". He just wanted to be a QB because throughout his life, people saw his talent and said "you could be a great receiver, returner, blah blah blah but hey son, you can't be a QB, you're black."




                      "How long have you been a black quarterback?"

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                      • #41
                        Well, if that's the case, then we do have a problem. Reid and Co. need to get through to McNabb and somehow solve this.

                        And DGMW, I wasn't implying that McNabb's got a problem; I understand where he's coming from, and I do think that unfortunately, a large number of people in this country feel that black kids can be WRs, LBs, RBs, etc. but no QBs, because they lack the brains or so.

                        I remember him in the 2004 ProBowl I believe, where he, Vick and Culpepper were the starting QBs for the NFC, and he emphasized how proud he was that three black QBs are starting in the NFC. So yeah, I think he's got that on his shoulders.

                        But I think Reid needs to get to him if he wants him to run more then. Sit down with him, emphasize to him that if he wins the SB, noone will ever dare call him a running QB or an overrated QB who's there because he's black.

                        In other words, win and your win takes care of all the words or feelings you want to make public.
                        "You will dress only in attire specially sanctioned by P.E. special services… You are no longer part of the system. You are above the system, over it, beyond it. We're "them." We're "they." We are the Men in Green."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Understood MD...I think generally we are saying the same thing...the only difference appears to be you think he should run to add to his game and I do not think he really needs to and that his focus should be on executing the offense and only running when he has to...

                          Vin, I have heard that many times and I still believe it is hogwash...if McNabb truly changed his game because of what some fans and media were saying then I think we are talking about a different person...McNabb has always done his thing and ignored the media/fans for the most part IMO and I think it is just his evolution into a complete QB and should not be read into any more than that...who knows what the truth is.
                          Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                          -Andy Reid

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
                            Understood MD...I think generally we are saying the same thing...the only difference appears to be you think he should run to add to his game and I do not think he really needs to and that his focus should be on executing the offense and only running when he has to...
                            Now, about this running giving him a greater chance on injury thing..........

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                            • #44
                              BTW- FWIW--- Nice discussion in the thread and nobody had to be called any names or labels!

                              Thanks!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
                                Vin, I have heard that many times and I still believe it is hogwash...if McNabb truly changed his game because of what some fans and media were saying then I think we are talking about a different person...McNabb has always done his thing and ignored the media/fans for the most part IMO and I think it is just his evolution into a complete QB and should not be read into any more than that...who knows what the truth is.
                                Athletes read the papers... McNabb is not immune. I don't think he gives a shit about some blowhard talking about how much he sucks... although it's human nature to want to prove people wrong, especially when they criticize you. The whole black/running QB thing goes beyong 5's career. He's probably heard it his whole life. He probably heard it when Doug Williams won the SB and it was considered a fluke. Just because McNabb gives bad pressers doesn't mean he's not driven by outside influences. The McNabb we see in interviews is an Andy Reid creation. "one game at a time.. I don't worry about what people say... blah blah blah". That's why Barkley was so damn refreshing.

                                I don't know a single athlete that when their career was all said and done, stuck to the "I ignored the press" story.

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