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  • #16
    Originally posted by Eaglebreath
    Vote, I think McNabb was a great running QB. He won games single handedly, with very little help from the skill positions.

    I do not put him in the category of great pocket passers. Joe Montana was a great pocket passer. Dan Marino was a great pocket passer. I don't think McNabb is on that level. Good yes, but not great.

    It doesn't matter anyways. I'd really like to see him throw caution to the wind, and jet with his legs like he did early in his career, in addition to making the throws from the pocket. I don't think he'll need to run as much to move the chains, because we've got better skill players now, but that rushing element clearly adds something to his overall game. I can't help but think that the reason he's slimmed down so much is to bring it this year.

    We'll see.
    Here's another way to look at it - is a great running QB equal to a great pocket passer? I'd say no. A great running QB is probably the equal of a decent-to-good pocket passer. When it comes down to it, pocket passing is absolutely necessary for a qb, running is a bonus.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Eaglebreath
      Vote, I think McNabb was a great running QB. He won games single handedly, with very little help from the skill positions.

      I do not put him in the category of great pocket passers. Joe Montana was a great pocket passer. Dan Marino was a great pocket passer. I don't think McNabb is on that level. Good yes, but not great.

      It doesn't matter anyways. I'd really like to see him throw caution to the wind, and jet with his legs like he did early in his career, in addition to making the throws from the pocket. I don't think he'll need to run as much to move the chains, because we've got better skill players now, but that rushing element clearly adds something to his overall game. I can't help but think that the reason he's slimmed down so much is to bring it this year.

      We'll see.
      Singlehandedly? I doubt that even with my foggy memory...I have a feeling the defense, ST, coaches, his OL and yes even some offensive position players probably helped out...

      Him running less is due to him evolving into a complete QB which derives mostly from the pocket and running if he has to, but to generally stay within the structure of the system and execute the plays...I agree the running dimension is something McNabb could and should use at times, but I do not believe he has to nor am I going to bash him for not doing so...

      The problem is having "him throw caution to the wind, and jet with his legs like he did early in his career" is somewhat contradictory to being a complete QB especially where McNabb is now in his career...he is NOT that QB any more so expecting him to be AND a pocket passer too is a bit myopic IMO...

      He is not great yet, but certainly good and better than "decent" IMO...he will be great by the time he retires IMO since he has made the transition completely, knows the system cold and only has to win a ring IMO to get the accolades he deserves...
      Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

      -Andy Reid

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by MDFAN
        As Fresh said my mantra for 5 or 6 years is very simple--- if he runs early, gains a few yards on a couple of carries-- by design or not-- it plants a seed in the DC's mind and IMO they play a little different D, and that D is much more susceptible to Reids spread it around O.

        Yo DM--Run a few times early on and you won't have to run nearly as much the rest of the game. Plant that seed! It's just like a play action or a play fake-- it prevents them from just pinning their ears back and coming.
        I agree and disagree...if he throws a TD strike, that plants alot bigger seed in the DC's mind then a 3 yd run IMO...I want him to focus on running the offense, using his teammates and running when things break down like he always has...I would not mind a couple of designed plays for him to run, but I think the importance of those are minor compared to the rest of his skill set as a QB now...
        Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

        -Andy Reid

        Comment


        • #19
          Since his arrival I also have advocated that his running helps throw the D off balance. In fact, I feel (and it is only my opinion) that he has yet to really scare any D with his arm as much as he has with his legs. I would love to see him get to the point where his pocket skills scare defenses but I still see too many passes that are high, low, behind, or in front of players. Maybe this is the year he breaks out as an accurate QB who hits guys in stride. Even if he does break out this year I have to say his legs have always bailed him out in tough situations and I think they still can.
          Wait until next year is a terrible philosophy
          Hope is not a strategy
          RIP

          Comment


          • #20
            Let's hope McNabb has a little Allen Iverson in him. AI always responded to negative criticism and conflict... to the point where he'd create it himself if needed.

            McNabb certainly loves to go against the grain. I still bang my head against the wall everytime i think about him saying 'i'm more than a running QB' and then not running at all. Let's hope someone tells him that all he is is a passing QB. While we don't want him to be Michael Vick, hes' gotta break out a little bit out of his shell.

            As much as Andy has done for McNabb in terms of discipline and everything, I feel like his lack of personality and keeping it close to the vest has been a detriment to McNabb's career. If McNabb averaged 2 INTs a game in the beginning of the season, I wouldn't mind as long as they were attempted more than 30 yards. Let's take some chances out there.

            Man... this is going to be a make or break year for McNabb.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
              Originally posted by MDFAN
              As Fresh said my mantra for 5 or 6 years is very simple--- if he runs early, gains a few yards on a couple of carries-- by design or not-- it plants a seed in the DC's mind and IMO they play a little different D, and that D is much more susceptible to Reids spread it around O.

              Yo DM--Run a few times early on and you won't have to run nearly as much the rest of the game. Plant that seed! It's just like a play action or a play fake-- it prevents them from just pinning their ears back and coming.
              I agree and disagree...if he throws a TD strike, that plants alot bigger seed in the DC's mind then a 3 yd run IMO...I want him to focus on running the offense, using his teammates and running when things break down like he always has...I would not mind a couple of designed plays for him to run, but I think the importance of those are minor compared to the rest of his skill set as a QB now...
              The difference VFK is this-- you can't just throw a 30 yard td pass--- at will.... that TD usually, at least partially, is a result of a defensive breakdown.................. a DC can and will address that but it will not have him generally change his D plan --- BUT IMO though you can have a DC change his entire D plan if #5 runs --- and he can pick and choose and choose almost any play he wants --- and THAT will have a DC changing his entire D plan to compensate.

              All teams play D to stop the pass they don't all plan or prioritize to stop a running QB, IMHO.

              I also will add that I see no down side to him running a couple of times, early, in almost every game.... he is not at any more risk of getting injured then he is sitting in the pocket, in fact, IMO, maybe even a little less so.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by NoDakIggle`
                Since his arrival I also have advocated that his running helps throw the D off balance. In fact, I feel (and it is only my opinion) that he has yet to really scare any D with his arm as much as he has with his legs. I would love to see him get to the point where his pocket skills scare defenses but I still see too many passes that are high, low, behind, or in front of players. Maybe this is the year he breaks out as an accurate QB who hits guys in stride. Even if he does break out this year I have to say his legs have always bailed him out in tough situations and I think they still can.
                Did you not watch the 2004 season? Or last year against KC or Oakland or SF?

                He shredded teams from the pocket...
                Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                -Andy Reid

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MDFAN
                  Originally posted by Vote for Kalas
                  Originally posted by MDFAN
                  As Fresh said my mantra for 5 or 6 years is very simple--- if he runs early, gains a few yards on a couple of carries-- by design or not-- it plants a seed in the DC's mind and IMO they play a little different D, and that D is much more susceptible to Reids spread it around O.

                  Yo DM--Run a few times early on and you won't have to run nearly as much the rest of the game. Plant that seed! It's just like a play action or a play fake-- it prevents them from just pinning their ears back and coming.
                  I agree and disagree...if he throws a TD strike, that plants alot bigger seed in the DC's mind then a 3 yd run IMO...I want him to focus on running the offense, using his teammates and running when things break down like he always has...I would not mind a couple of designed plays for him to run, but I think the importance of those are minor compared to the rest of his skill set as a QB now...
                  The difference VFK is this-- you can't just throw a 30 yard td pass--- at will.... that TD usually, at least partially, is a result of a defensive breakdown.................. a DC can and will address that but it will not have him generally change his D plan --- BUT IMO though you can have a DC change his entire D plan if #5 runs --- and he can pick and choose and choose almost any play he wants --- and THAT will have a DC changing his entire D plan to compensate.

                  All teams play D to stop the pass they don't all plan or prioritize to stop a running QB, IMHO.

                  I also will add that I see no down side to him running a couple of times, early, in almost every game.... he is not at any more risk of getting injured then he is sitting in the pocket, in fact, IMO, maybe even a little less so.
                  Again, I agree and disagree...I have no problem with Reid having a couple designed plays for McNabb to run and I guess I can hold my breath hoping he does not get hurt, but my thought is behind this massive OL he will be much better protected and will have more time to run the offense...

                  I disagree that teams do not gameplan for running QB...take Vick for example, teams know he cannot pass for poo so they know if they contain him they will beat the Falcons, JJ perfected this in our NFCCG victory...Vick has not made the transition and IMO will be a running QB i.e. not a complete QB for his career...

                  Gameplanning is all contextual...teams used to gameplan for McNabb's running just like Vick because they knew his passing skills were not developed yet and the weapons he had were not great...they cannot do that anymore...2004 and some games last year before he got so injured he lost effectiveness McNabb showed he can decimate teams as a complete QB; pass well, run the offense well and run when he has to...

                  There have been many complete QB who have had great careers and killed defenses even if there was no breakdowns...would the extra component of being able to run help McNabb more like it did Young or McNair or Elway? Sure, but that is what it is: an extra component not the main skill set.
                  Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                  -Andy Reid

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    1. I disagree, 200% that his injury level rises if he runs rather than stays in the pocket. IMO, his injury level is no greater running than staying in the pocket and getting speared or his knees rolled up on or just a hard hit from the blind side. I just will never, ever, buy the injury argument.

                    2. Your right they used to have to game plan for #5 running, they used designated spy's, they used rolling spy's, they used different D coverages ETC ETC.... since he stopped running with any regularity, DC's have not had to alter their defensive schemes to allow for that, IMO. I never ever said they didn't game plan for running QB's in fact I said the opposite and they used to for #5, but not in the last 2 years.

                    3. I never, ever suggested that it wasn't anything more than an "extra" component-- that's is my whole point it is something extra and the DC's have to account for it--- but ONLY if he shows them that he will take off for 20/30 yards at times(or even for a 5 yard 1st down). If he doesn't run, he is giving the DC's in this league a free pass on having to have a D in place to account for it --- why allow that?

                    4. IMO, all he has to do is take off 2 or 3 times in the 1st half of a game and the 2nd half the DC's will have made a point to alter their D plan for it-- thus opening up the field for #5 to have less pressure and more time to pick a D apart. They go hand in hand, they compliment each other--- why give the other team a break by giving them one less thing to worry about? It's part of who he is, it's part of his god given talent, it's part of why he went so high in the draft --- to deny it and not use it is just plain foolish, IMHO.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Vote, MD is right. He's not going to abandon the pass to rush the football. But, if he shows that he's willing to take off, and get good yardage, the defense is going to have to account for that. It adds another dimension. A big difference between a mobile QB that will run, and a Drew Bledsoe, that can't even run for his life.

                      The thing is that McNabb is an accomplished pocket passer. Not many running QBs are that good from the pocket. Guys like Vick, for instance. Heck, Donovan is a much more accomplished pocket passer than Randall. But, he also has some jets. You forget maybe, but you are going to get reaquainted with it because he's going to be a lot quicker at this weight, and I'm thinking he doesn't come down that far in anticipation of standing in the pocket taking hits.

                      Donovan the pocket passer, meet Donovan the runner. Brought to you by some wounded pride, and some guy named TO.

                      Just contemplate THAT for a moment.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        well reports are that McNabb is looking slimmer this year (might just be the haircut) so maybe he'll take off and run a little bit. All we want is him to run it twice in the first quarter to keep the defense on its toes. He needs to use ALL his weapons.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Well, I do not buy that he has to do it to be successful...sorry, but he has shredded defenses just fine without doing it much and believe me DC's had plenty to think about without him running....if he wants to do it more or Reid/him want to add designed plays for it, no problem, but I have zero issue with him being a complete QB to the possible detriment of running...

                          I am confident he will tap that skill when he has to like he always has...I think we are saying very similar things, but it appears you and MD feel it will have a significant effect on a defense while I would argue McNabb simply running the offense well and using all his weapons has a bigger effect...McNabb, even if he does not run, offers many problems for defenses as we have seen many times.

                          In fact, I would argue his scrambling is even more important than running too since it exhausts the DL and forces the secondary to cover for far too long...
                          Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                          -Andy Reid

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by sfphillyfan
                            well reports are that McNabb is looking slimmer this year (might just be the haircut) so maybe he'll take off and run a little bit. All we want is him to run it twice in the first quarter to keep the defense on its toes. He needs to use ALL his weapons.
                            But thats the whole point...as a complete QB, he can use them whenever he wants or needs to and he decides IMO...it would be pointless to mandate he run 2X every 1st quarter of every game...no, he could have games when he runs 10X and games when he runs 0...it is up to him IMO and thats as it should be...
                            Eliminate distractions, create energy, fear nothing, and attack everything.

                            -Andy Reid

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              If Reggie Brown turns out to be half the superhero some think he is, and we get ourselves a good running game besides, DMac will do just fine..............
                              "Philly fans are great....It's the only place where you pull up on the bus and you've got the grandfather, the grandmother, the kids and the grandkids - everybody flicking you off. At other stadiums, they give you the thumbs-down. Here, they give you the middle finger.”
                              — Michael Strahan

                              "No one likes us, no one likes us, no one likes us, we don’t care, we’re from Philly, F—-ing Philly, No one likes us, we don’t care!”
                              - Jason Kelce with the best championship speech ever

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I'm with VFK all the way on this. I don't know why people are bringing guys like Drew Bledsoe into this - obviously McNabb's not going to be completely immobile. He used his running very judiciously I thought in 2004 - getting key first downs, buying time to hit TO or LJ downfield... And since his overall numbers were the best of his career, I have a hard time thinking he was really being held back by running less often. Fact is, NFL history is packed with great qb who couldn't run and great qbs who were mobile. Great running qbs? The list begins and ends with Randall, and his greatness was individual accomplishment, not team success. Donovan has never stopped using his mobility, and mobility is what's important.

                                One more point - no DC will ever assign a spy to Donovan again. Only Vick and probably Vince Young are good enough runners to merit a spy. 2000 McNabb was that good a runner - but he's not anymore. That's just how it is. Spies aren't really a good strategy anyway.

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