Trump

[FRESH]

Nodak, I agree with you that Trump needs to wait his turn. But I also find it highly suspicious, and inconsistent to say the least, that these dramatic changes in action by our president are taking place in his 11th hour. Sorry, but it stinks to me. What are you going to think if it comes out that Obama's regime was behind the construction of this UN resolution? And do you not see the sanctions vs Russia at this final moment for the joke that they are? It's like a kid taking a swing at a kid he is afraid of, and then running behind his mommas skirt.

I agree that President Obama sees MANY things differently. But why do these last second tactics? I believe I know.why. As a result the Democratic party has hit a low not seen since the 1930s. And history will ultimately remember and reflect just what type of President he has been. I will state again that I don't know how successful a president Trump will be. But the book on Obama has already been written. The Democrats have lost tons of seats and power at the fedetal and state levels because of it. He greatly damaged his party, seeking some vision that others do not share, and being inconsistent and weak.

It is unfortunate that the American people could not nominate a better, more qualified candidate than Trump to take over. But he won because he called out Obama's failed policies and programs, and tapped into the county's frustration with the administration. OBama can blame the Russians if he likes, but it was his own doing. He can't see that, still thinks his way is right and now he wants to force it down everyone's throat. JAN 20TH CAN'T COME SOON ENOUGH. STOP THE DESTRUCTION.

[NoDakIggle]

No I don't see these as inconsistent at all. First every president, every one, does more in their last six months of office than they do all four or eight years previously. They do this because they have not there are things that they could not do before due to the politics of it. That is just the way it is.
I don't know that the administration is behind the UN resolution but it won't surprise me at all that they let it be known that they would not block it or that they would like to see it. I am certain though that they did not bring it forward. They couldn't bring it forward due to the politics of it. And I also wouldn't be surprised that it has something to do with not letting the Palestinians sit at the UN. If your recall the US thought they should be observers but the Israelis fought that. Anyway, the UN issue has great cat and mouse movements; well above the straight up US abstains to piss off Israel or Trump.
I think the Russians have just gotten bolder and bolder to the point where he had to do something. Make no mistake--Putin is not a friend of the US. And Trump coming out on his side--without taking intel briefings on the hacking, is a poor move by him. One might think he likes Russia more than the US. Now, that is silly but it is no more silly than saying Obama likes Muslims or Arabs, or Iranians more than he likes the US. The bottom line is that there is little doubt (no doubt in my mind) that Russia is full fledge into cyber warfare. I believe we are also, to some degree at least. I am concerned that the next US president may not be putting enough concern into that. He is more into the image of the office than the day to day dealings with it.
Finally, yes the dems lost significantly across every line except the number of votes. Trump didn't win because he called out anything. He won because he (actually Kellyanne Conway and Reince Preibus) played a much better electoral college game. This is a highly divided country right now but Clinton did win the majority of votes by a substantial margin. I have ALWAYS believed in the electoral college (as opposed to Mr. Trump or many others I know who came to like it only after it favored him) so I am not at all disputing the elections. I am just stating that there are a great number of people (the majority) that didn't like this man. In fact some might say that the majority of people in the US LIKED where Obama was going. Myself, I think that is a little extreme but it is certainly a point that could be debated.
Don't forget where you see destruction others see success or, in Obama's words, hope. The country needs to move on but doing it in anger does little for us.

[FRESH]

We could debate both sides of all three arguments here, Nodak. And no question, perspective plays largely into it. I definitely have my own perspective, and I have no fear of expressing it. I have not been a fan of the outgoing administrations policies, and I do absolutely see smoke bombs being thrown in a destructive manner. If you think this is part of a constructive plan....ah well. Perhaps I have a selective memory, but I do not recall a post election behavior like this in the Bush transition to Obama. I don't re,ember him polluting the waters and making major policy swings that the incoming press woI'll have to deal with.

However, today there is something bigger on tap.......

eagles win. Dallas sucks!!!

[MDFAN]

Love the discussion... Will join tomorrow........

[MDFAN]

If anybody really wants to debate this issue, you need to establish some factual ground rules... IMHO.

1. There are no such native people as Palestinian, this was a totally made up thing by Yassir Arafat. No such native people as Palestinians.

2. When the Israelis did remove ALL their settlers, the "palestinians" (Hamas and others) moved in and delivered thousands of missiles into Israel.

3. No other country has been sanctioned like Israel has by the UN--- Not Iraq, Iran, or SYRIA!!!!!!

4. The UN has become way way way too political to be a fair arbiter.

5. Obama did this clearly for only personal and political reasons. He hates on a personal level Netanyahu and this also furthers the quagmire he is leaving for Trump, who he also hates.

6. Trump does need to kick back on the tweets a bit--- but we have to remember that he is different, he is not a politician, he may have singlehandedly revised how you reach the people in the US vis-a-vis twitter and facebook and all social media. Trump was out spent by hundreds of millions.

7. The popular vote thingie is just a basic strawman argument--- since that is the rules we live by, we are a republic not a pure democracy. And the popular vote may well have gone to him if he spent the time and money in those states where he lost badly.

I am fully pro Israel, based on several factors--- not the least of which is that they our the only thing close to friends and a democracy we have in that entire godforsaken piece of shit area of the world!

We are clearly a divided nation, but the difference, IMM, is that the left refuses to even consider that they are wrong right now for this time and place in the world and that Trump will be the ruination of the country----- without seeing any evidence that he will not change things for the better.

Never believe a politicians rhetoric--- judge them on what they actually do or don't do. And also lets not ever forget that this loss was just as much about people hating Hillary(not because she was "A" woman, but because she was THAT woman) as it was people hating they path this government (Especially Obama) has taken the last several decades.

I guess that makes me a deplorable!

End of rant!

[FRESH]

I was ready to give up after the "ELECTORAL COLLAGE GAME" ,MD. But good post by you. I will and have admitted that I have a bias. But others do as well and can't admit to it. Anyway, Trump could have wasted time campaigning in the radical left Coast, and pulled some more votes, and of course still lost those states but done better in the popular vote.....which simply proves he not a complete idiot.

And of course Obama has made these moves out of disdain for Netanyahu and Trump. He would have NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER made some of these last hour moves if Hillary won the nom. Is there any doubt? He doesn't mind leaving a mess for Trump to try to clean up.

[Eagle60]

No I don't see these as inconsistent at all. First every president, every one, does more in their last six months of office than they do all four or eight years previously. They do this because they have not there are things that they could not do before due to the politics of it. That is just the way it is.

I don't know that the administration is behind the UN resolution but it won't surprise me at all that they let it be known that they would not block it or that they would like to see it. I am certain though that they did not bring it forward. They couldn't bring it forward due to the politics of it. And I also wouldn't be surprised that it has something to do with not letting the Palestinians sit at the UN. If your recall the US thought they should be observers but the Israelis fought that. Anyway, the UN issue has great cat and mouse movements; well above the straight up US abstains to piss off Israel or Trump.
I think the Russians have just gotten bolder and bolder to the point where he had to do something. Make no mistake--Putin is not a friend of the US. And Trump coming out on his side--without taking intel briefings on the hacking, is a poor move by him. One might think he likes Russia more than the US. Now, that is silly but it is no more silly than saying Obama likes Muslims or Arabs, or Iranians more than he likes the US. The bottom line is that there is little doubt (no doubt in my mind) that Russia is full fledge into cyber warfare. I believe we are also, to some degree at least. I am concerned that the next US president may not be putting enough concern into that. He is more into the image of the office than the day to day dealings with it.
Finally, yes the dems lost significantly across every line except the number of votes. Trump didn't win because he called out anything. He won because he (actually Kellyanne Conway and Reince Preibus) played a much better electoral college game. This is a highly divided country right now but Clinton did win the majority of votes by a substantial margin. I have ALWAYS believed in the electoral college (as opposed to Mr. Trump or many others I know who came to like it only after it favored him) so I am not at all disputing the elections. I am just stating that there are a great number of people (the majority) that didn't like this man. In fact some might say that the majority of people in the US LIKED where Obama was going. Myself, I think that is a little extreme but it is certainly a point that could be debated.
Don't forget where you see destruction others see success or, in Obama's words, hope. The country needs to move on but doing it in anger does little for us.

ND, I'm going to stay out of this argument for the most part and only talk about some "strange" things that have been going on since the election. First of all I think that what you said about the timeframe of what you outlined is the complete opposite of how I view what Presidents do on the way out. When a President first gets elected he immediately starts to push his agenda that he got elected on through congress. The first 100 days are critical because the honeymoon ends after that. Next he tries to clean up whatever he started and then blesses us with his wisdom for the remainder of his term. If he is reelected, which is usually the case, he now is in lame duck status and after the first couple of years he's pretty much done. The only thing he does after that is campaign for his successor period. After the election he normally does nothing and stays out of the limelight for the next guy and helps with the transition. The only official thing that he does is pardon a bunch of crooks who grease his palms on the way out the door.

Obama on the other hand just can't let it go for a couple of reasons. First of all he loves being President, he thrives on it. Most Presidents are just tuckered out after 8 years and have had it. Not this guy, he wants to stay forever. He is a narcissist in sheep clothing. He knows more about you than you do and he's basically going to take care of you because it's impossible for you to help yourself. After all, he's the smartest guy on the planet. He's a socialist. That's how I feel anyway.

Secondly he HATES TRUMP and most of that is very justified and I don't blame him for feeling that way. Trump has busted Obama's balls over nonsense for over 8 years now and still won't let up. These Russian sanctions are political grandstanding at it's finest. He is just trying to set Trump up for contrversy. He has just recently come out with his stance that HE would have beaten Trump in an election. His ego is immense.

My feelings are that both of these guys are blowholes and have different ways of doing it. Obama is as smooth as a baby's cheeks, and Trump is just vulgar. I guess that you could call me a cynic and you would be correct as far as politics go (and the Eagles lol). The only two Presidents that I ever voted "for" are Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. The rest I really can't tell you why I voted other than my civic duty.

My point is very simple here. I find Obama's actions lately to be highly vindictive and out of the norm for a President leaving office. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Thanks for reading this bullshit.

[FRESH]

I have been shown up by MDFAN and Eagle60

[NoDakIggle]

Before I write anything I will say that I firmly and fully believe that ALL of these cats are from the same sperm bank, in fact they may be from the same donor. Doesn't matter if it is Clinton, Trump, Cruz, Obama, etc. They all say what they want (actually what they think you want to hear) to get elected and then do what they can get through Congress.
I would also say it is amazing how many great minds now believe in the electoral college when a year ago one would believe we were ready for a constitutional amendment to change it. I also find it funny that I just read on the other board criticism of saying if they don't fumble or if they kick the FG but here we are going to say if Trump wanted to he would have won the popular vote and then consider it fact. The only fact is that she won the popular vote and that fact indicates a divided country. Hopefully that division is healed for the good of the country but I will also say let it go. Republicans say the Dems, of which I am neither, won't let it go but I assure you my email tells me the Repubs are just as unwilling to let it go.
Further, I would add I don't give one crap about Israel anymore than I care about Cuba, Columbia, or Costa Rica. I care about the United States. If we overrun Cuba tomorrow in order that we have cheap beach vacations for Americans it doesn't affect me one iota. If you screw with the US, as Russia has been so fond of doing lately, I have no qualms if we wipe out your power grid so you live in the dark ages. My comment on Russia isn't solely based on cyber warfare it is based on ships being buzzed among other things.
Factual really is funny. Now I am not here to debate ancient lands and peoples; who did what to whom; or this land is my land and this land is your land. I would only say the majority of the world recognizes the Palestinian people. Yes the 'Palestinians' have been involved in terrorism, which is another word for struggle in many minds. I don't dispel that. Just as I don't discard the FACT that Israel continues to build settlements that they know are a hindrance to the peace process. Again I don't give a crap if they fight for a hundred years. They can both go away as far as I am concerned. Just don't tell me that the US president abstained from a UN vote because you know for a fact the he hates Netanyahu or that he hates Trump. There is no factual evidence of that just as there is no factual evidence that Howie is an idiot of a GM.
I will agree that the UN is FAR too political. Unfortunately the US presidents, along with powerhouses Russia and China, have used it as a pawn rather than doing the right thing. But I am not sure where Israel has been sanctioned more than any other country. Are you saying over the last 50 years the UN has sanctioned Israel more than they have sanctioned others countries or that the sanctions were greater against Israel than they have been against other countries. I will admit I don't know how many times they have sanctioned any particular country or the depth of those sanctions but I would be very, very surprised if Israel has felt the wrath (what little there is) of the UN more than anyone else.
I actually have no objection at all of Trump tweets daily, weekly or hourly. It is the content. He can say how nice it is, how much he looks forward to the office, or whatever. What I don't think he should do is tweet against the current president-- which to some degree could be considered anti-American since Barack Obama, as much as people don't like it, is the American president. When he tweets that he doesn't trust what the intel officials say (paraphrasing) it undermines my country--our country. He can say it all he wants in private to the intel community. He can say it in press conferences where there is context. There is little to no context in tweeting and that is a problem in international affairs (IMM anyway)
This has probably gone on too long but I will finally say that 60 yes the presidents pardon at the end of their term. They also issue executive orders, a practice that is absolutely wrong--if you cant pass it through congress it should not happen. I agree with your take of the presidency for the most part but at the end they quietly or sneakily push through things (through administrative rules which is what most of the government runs by) that they want that they didn't have the political money for. Things that they couldn't push through congress but now won't cost them much because they are leaving office. Barack Obama is no different than those before him. As for him being the smartest guy on the planet I would beg to differ. Or at least Donald Trump would beg to differ. Donald is smarter than the generals that he now wants in his cabinet and is so smart he doesn't need the intel briefings that those who came before him needed. In fact, he says he is so smart he knows about hacking without the intel on the hacking. Maybe that will be true; only time will tell. But I allow for the possibility that he may be right even though I doubt it. While others on here don't allow for the possibility that Obama is acting in what he considers the best interest of the US. No it has to be because he hates two other leaders.
The same sperm bank.

[Eagle60]

You forgot that he knows more about ISIS than anybody LOL. What a piece of work. I really think that he won the election because people are just sick of politicians even though he pretty much is one himself. At least he's an Independent. What scares me is that if he gets thrown out because he pisses off both parties. Then the Republicans will put their guy in and then they will do as much damage as Pelosi and Obama did. I like balance but with these Executive Orders I guess the President can do whatever he wants to (I think anyway but if I'm wrong please correct me).

As far as Israel goes I always thought that we supported them because they were our only foothold in that part of the world. I would be just as happy If we just put our heads in the sand and came home and let the rest of the world deal with their own problems the way they want to. Am I a bad person for saying that?

[MDFAN]

LOL, ND, that's a lot of words man. I only type with one finger, it's late so I'll need a good 10 hours to be able to type that much as a response sometime tomorrow.

[MDFAN]

Let me start by saying that I appreciate your POV, but IMM being an isolationist will not solve any problems that will eventually drag us, THE US, which is my ONLY concern also, down into the muck... think WW2.

And I do apologize, (and appreciate your sarcasm,) for saying all was factual as some can not be labeled that way, because there are just no facts available so let me try to clarify.

1. There are no such people as "Palestinians", that is a fact.

2. When the Israelis did move out of the settlements the region was occupied by Hamas and other "Palestinians" and they proceeded to fire thousands of rockets into Israel. Fact!

3. No other country has been condemned and sanctioned more that Israel in the Untied Nations.

"The following is a list of United Nations resolutions that concern both Israel and Palestine and bordering states such as Lebanon. As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council."

Fact!

4. We both agree the UN has become way to political...

5. "Palestinians" still have not and will not recognize theat Israel even has a right to exist. Fact.

6. "Palestinians" Still offer monthly stipends for any one killing an Israeli. It's a fact.

7. Trump I agree needs to cut back on the Tweets... but he is not a politician and IMM has changed the entire way politics may be handled in the future and social media will play a part... he knew the Dems and Hillary did not. Opinion (based on much studying and listening) not Fact.

8. While there is no way this can be checked as an actual fact it is widely understood and very very logical--- Obama "dislikes" Trump and Netanyahu. Again maybe verifiable facts, but if you read speeches and comments and even Obama's campaign stumps for Clinton -- it is evident that at least there is no way not to conclude that my statements were fair.... and while not "FACTS", they are logical and widely held top be truths. Haven't even gotten into what Obama did during the Israeli elections to try and stop Netanyahu.

9. Israel is, IN FACT, our only ally in that region, that we can count on, where their belief system and value system is very much aligned with the US. So in order to maintain that relationship we should appreciate and help grow that relationship.

Personally I could care less about that whole region, if it went away it would not bother me in the least, but the world doesn't work that way.

We agree on several fronts--- almost all politicians are of the same scumbag egomaniacal sperm bank. As previous forefathers used the power and service to better the country--- that hasn't been the case in many a year.

We also agree that this country is very very divided, I think we agree that this is a fact. IMO, this is a divide that occurs more between urban and suburban areas. (Whole nother debate)

And the electoral college thingie... I may have implied that Trump would have gotten more votes than Clinton had we been going with a total popular vote-- I didn't mean to imply that it was a fact--- only that it might have been possible for him to change many voters minds, as he did in Mich, PA, and Fla, had he campaigned in other states. You are correct not a fact--- but it would raise the possibility. But again it is a moot point since he played by the rules in place.

I have no idea what Trump will or won't do... what I do know is that what we have been doing DID NOT work. We have become the Pillsbury dough boy to the world. A country that draws lines in the sand and then lets's madmen brush those lines away and we draw new ones, instead of doing what we said we would do. And the world knows it!

Sincerely Your best Bud,
Deplorable, MDFAN

[FRESH]

You have done an excellent job, MD. I will add just one more piece. In response to the claim: " In fact some might say that the majority of people in the US LIKED where Obama was going. " Not even close. Many people may have liked him on a personal level, but as for where he and his administration has been taking us the last 8 years:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...untry-902.html

And this is the biggest reason that his stumping for Clinton didn't carry any weight.

[MDFAN]

You have done an excellent job, MD. I will add just one more piece. In response to the claim: " In fact some might say that the majority of people in the US LIKED where Obama was going. " Not even close. Many people may have liked him on a personal level, but as for where he and his administration has been taking us the last 8 years:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...untry-902.html

And this is the biggest reason that his stumping for Clinton didn't carry any weight.

WOW, did you happen to take notice of the congressional part of that poll?

And I agree, people liked Obama, he is a very personable guy, a very good speaker, but this country's voters are not trending to the left... they are tired of the motion that way.

[FRESH]

Yes, a lot of the disapproval falls with congress. The BIG PICTURE is that the direction our country is headed is viewed very negatively. Peole vote tht they dig Obama....but at the same time slam the direction of the country. WHAT A CONTRADICTION! People like Obama, he's a charmer, but they don't like what has become of our government during his term....which is precisely what Trump ran on, and why he won. Draining the swamp, removing the corruption of the Obama/Clinton regime.

Will he and his administration be any different? I dont know. If not, he will be a one term Pres. But the promise to shake things up and change the political scene is largely what got him the opportunity. And for all of Obaba's smooth charm, that message of hope couldn't be squashed.