Dawk update

[FRESH]

I think a lot of people were obviously not happy with the Eagles. But, when the planned replacement (Demps) ended up getting replaced with a draft pick it reinforced their opinion that the Eagles made a mistake letting Dawkins go. Then, when Dawkins comes out and plays well in Denver, it reinforced it that much more.

I am certainly not making any final judgement here, but based on what I have seen since the offseason, I'd say they undervalued Dawkins, and made a mistake letting him go. Like I said, that could change.

Well put. That is how I am feeling as well.

[FRESH]

There is a difference in something being discussed and jumping to conclusions and making judgments 3 games in.

And btw you should refrain from stealing Staq5's made up words!

Did I steal that? Hmmmm, maybe I did. Must have seen it somewhere and liked it. You know what they say about imitation.......

[Vote for Kalas]

As of today, I do not feel that the Broncos "overpaid" Brian Dawkins. I feel that the Eagles "undervalued" him. That opinion may change, of course, as the season wears on, but after watching Dawkins on Sunday, I kind of doubt it.

This is the team that drafted him, developed him, paid him well for 12+ years, extended him twice when he was near or over 30 and still made him an offer at age 35 after he had struggled through an injury year in 2007 and slipped in pass coverage last season so much JJ had to make him more of a run-first S.

They had valued Dawk very highly for his entire career, but had seen signs of slippage and knew at age 35 the time was close--even then they were willing to make him an offer which IMV states clearly they valued Dawk, but were being realistic since the odds are very long for a player at Dawk's age and position.

How many 35 yr old S are there in the league starting? 1, Brian Dawkins--Denver had an awful D and wanted Dawk to help them. No other team was willing to give him the $$ Denver did. Did the whole league undervalue Dawk?

I also find it interesting when people say he wore down last year, yet he was the defensive player of the month for December.

He was player of the month after JJ found a niche for him that minimized his coverage responsibilities and put him in a run-first role which he thrived in--up to that point he was being exposed in the pass game which is why JJ made the switch and utilized more of the young guys in coverage.

As usual with these contracts, it's all about the guaranteed money. I still feel that the Eagles should have paid the man. Yea, we'd still be 2-1 either way, but we'll see how many big plays, forced fumbles, and soforth Macho Harris makes against teams like the Cowboys and Giants. Even at 35 years of age, Brian Dawkins is still an impact player. Macho Harris? Not so much. Not yet anyway, and maybe never.

In 4 games this year, Dawk has 0 FF, INT or sacks...in fact his "impactness" had slipped the last few years compared to his prime.

Since 2007, Dawk has a total of 3 sacks

Since 2007, Dawk has a total of 2 INT

Since 2007, Dawk has a total of 6 FF (all last season)

Dawk was once a rookie too and became a stud...none of us know what Harris will be and judging after 3 games is silly. The Eagles are playing the odds again--its better to find a younger option with upside and develop him than it is to stick with a vet option on the downside. Will Dawk prove them wrong? Maybe. Will Harris prove them right? Maybe.

We do not know yet...let's see how this season goes and re-visit the topic then

[Vote for Kalas]

And Vote, the Eagles chose not to match Dawk's offer? According to our dipshit money man, they might have countered the offer if they knew about it. THe excuse we were fed was not simply that they didn't think he was woth re-signing, or re-signing at any particular dollar amount, but that we had "communication issues"...again.

Banner must think some of you are mushrooms.....

Reid said very clearly on Eskin's show during the off-season that he and Dawk discussed the offers and that he advised Dawk the Denver offer was so good he should not turn it down. Reid said the Eagles wanted Dawk to stay and Dawk wanted to stay, but that the offer from Denver was so above norm for a player of Dawk's age and position that Dawk could not say no.

Banner and Dawk's agent may have had communication issues, I have no idea, but the Eagles clearly knew about the Denver offer or Reid would not have said anything about it and, without their offer, Dawk would still be an Eagle.

I never heard anyone from the Eagles say Dawk was not worth re-signing, they made him an offer so clearly they thought he was at a certain price and a certain time frame. Denver's offer was above norm in both areas and went beyond the line the Eagles were willing to consider.

[Vote for Kalas]

I think a lot of people were obviously not happy with the Eagles. But, when the planned replacement (Demps) ended up getting replaced with a draft pick it reinforced their opinion that the Eagles made a mistake letting Dawkins go. Then, when Dawkins comes out and plays well in Denver, it reinforced it that much more.

I am certainly not making any final judgement here, but based on what I have seen since the offseason, I'd say they undervalued Dawkins, and made a mistake letting him go. Like I said, that could change.

I agree EB on the pulse of the fanbase fueled as usual by some of the local media

The problems with such "analysis" are that most of it stems from an emotional connection to a player and speculation based on a very small sample size not to mention bucking massive amounts of data regarding players in the mid-30's and their production and the fact no NFL team started a 35 yr old S before Denver signed Dawk...

We'll see what happens...

[MDFAN]

Also seems that some people refuse to acknowledge that every body was a replacement player/rookie at one time.

Again, it's apples to oranges when you try and compare. And only time will tell if the Eagles made a "giant" mistake and left the D witha "gaping" hole as some suggest.

Personally for the overall outlook of the team and based on what they had to go on back then--- they were fair and handled it well, just as Dawk did.

[balto-eaglefan]

Other than Rod Woodson, I can't think of a starting safety at Dawk's age. Woodson started at safety for Baltimore and Oakland from age 34-38, including 2000, when Baltimore had one of the best defenses of all time. Disclaimer: I know that says a lot about Woodson and nothing about Dawk! I'm sure he was one of the oldest players on that D. Really impressed with Woodson though, he went to the Pro Bowl four of those seasons years, and was first team All-Pro at 37 (that's freaking incredible, and no I don't expect that for Dawk).

The "Since 2007" numbers for Dawk are a little skewed though. He did miss 6 games that year (neck injury, wasn't it?). He was first team All Pro in 2006, but he was also 33 y.o. then, so let's leave that out too. I think that the 2008 season by itself might be a better indicator....
- only 1 pick, not much there. Sorta figures with them moving him closer to the LOS. Not as good as Woodson's 2-8 picks a year during his mid-late 30's
- 6 passes defensed last year, he's up to 3 now...Dawk's earlier years his PD total was 12-17 of them.
- 6 forced fumbles last year, tied his career high, he's usually had anywhere from 0-5 in a season.
- 3 sacks last year, usually he ranges anywhere from 1-3.
- 64 tackles and 11 assists last year, about the same as he's had throughout his career.

So, feel free to draw your own conclusions.....stats don't lie, but we statisticians do.........

[FRESH]

Reid said very clearly on Eskin's show during the off-season that he and Dawk discussed the offers and that he advised Dawk the Denver offer was so good he should not turn it down. Reid said the Eagles wanted Dawk to stay and Dawk wanted to stay, but that the offer from Denver was so above norm for a player of Dawk's age and position that Dawk could not say no.

Banner and Dawk's agent may have had communication issues, I have no idea, but the Eagles clearly knew about the Denver offer or Reid would not have said anything about it and, without their offer, Dawk would still be an Eagle.

I never heard anyone from the Eagles say Dawk was not worth re-signing, they made him an offer so clearly they thought he was at a certain price and a certain time frame. Denver's offer was above norm in both areas and went beyond the line the Eagles were willing to consider.

Vote, we have two possible scenarios here, depending upon who you believe, Banner or Reid. I heard some of Andy's commentary after the fact as well. I've already expressed my opinion about the Banner/Comunication scenario. As for Andy's version, then it simply comes down to the fact that the Eagles didn't believe that Dawk was worth what he got. Several people above are expressing the opinion that Dawk WAS worth the investment.....and so there is our difference in opinion on this issue if Andy told it true. Pretty simple really.

[leifdawg]

Other than Rod Woodson, I can't think of a starting safety at Dawk's age. Woodson started at safety for Baltimore and Oakland from age 34-38, including 2000, when Baltimore had one of the best defenses of all time. Disclaimer: I know that says a lot about Woodson and nothing about Dawk! I'm sure he was one of the oldest players on that D. Really impressed with Woodson though, he went to the Pro Bowl four of those seasons years, and was first team All-Pro at 37 (that's freaking incredible, and no I don't expect that for Dawk).

The "Since 2007" numbers for Dawk are a little skewed though. He did miss 6 games that year (neck injury, wasn't it?). He was first team All Pro in 2006, but he was also 33 y.o. then, so let's leave that out too. I think that the 2008 season by itself might be a better indicator....
- only 1 pick, not much there. Sorta figures with them moving him closer to the LOS. Not as good as Woodson's 2-8 picks a year during his mid-late 30's
- 6 passes defensed last year, he's up to 3 now...Dawk's earlier years his PD total was 12-17 of them.
- 6 forced fumbles last year, tied his career high, he's usually had anywhere from 0-5 in a season.
- 3 sacks last year, usually he ranges anywhere from 1-3.
- 64 tackles and 11 assists last year, about the same as he's had throughout his career.

So, feel free to draw your own conclusions.....stats don't lie, but we statisticians do.........

You can't point out that moving him up to the LOS probably hurt his INT numbers without also pointing out that it probably helped his sacks and FFs.

[Eaglebreath]

Vote, I never said the whole league undervalued Brian Dawkins. I said the Eagles did, and nothing I've seen so far, up to this point, has changed that opinion. Actually, it has reinforced it.

I would imagine that this will get revisited quite often over the next two years, and the jury remains out on whether the Eagles F O screwed up, or not.

But, to me, this is not just about letting Dawkins walk. It's about the lack of a qualified replacement on a team that has it's sights set on a championship. Everyone who sided with the FO on this, prior to training camp, was saying "We'll be fine, Demps is going to be the guy." Well, that didn't happen. So, they've got a 5th round draft pick replacing Dawkins. Plus, they gave a bunch of money to Jones, and I don't think he's even played a down yet.

So, my opinon remains the same as it was when the negotiations ended. If memory serves me, it would have taken 9 mil guaranteed over two years to keep Dawkins. I still feel they made a mistake not paying the man.

[FRESH]

I don't want this to turn into a Harris bashing session, because I like Harris and think he will be a nice player for us, eventually. And Like the Mamula situation where the man got heat because of when he was drafted (overshadowing the fact that he was a decent player), Harrris has some big shoes to fill, so, it's a bit unfair to jump on his ass.

However, the fact remains that we have a 5th round rookie starting at safety for us....and he was not even a safety coming into the league. Is it reasonable to understand some skepticism here? I think this could turn into another OMAR. Nice player, used in the proper role, but physically can't handle the position he has been thrust into. I like Gaither, but he can't be the physical presence in the middle that the Eagles want him to be. Maybe you can get by with him for a while. We have had a physical safety that could play tough inside. If the Eagles want to retain that syle of defense, we will be looking for another safety option at the end of the year. We will see.

Perhaps the Eagles thought that with Bradley at MLB, they could get away with Demps/Harris at safety....and then that whole thing blew up? I think it came down to needing to have another physical guy inside, and since we no longer have Dawk as an option, and there is no safety out there they could grab up right now to bulk up the spot, the next answer was to beef up at MLB....enter Trotter. That is why I think he is here. The void by having no Dawk, and no Bradley. The void in physicality, and if you believe in that type of stuff, leadership on the field.

It's a void we didn't need to have...if you wanted to part with some more Benjamins. Some peopel seem to want to throw up that JJ was using Dawk in a certain way, so it diminishes what he brings to the team. Wel to that I say, despite the fact that JJ is gone, his protege is here running the show. He'd know how to use Dawk in this system, certainly. We were a top defense in the league last year, and Dawk was instrumental in our late season surge. I see no reason to diminish what he provides/provided to us.

I don't accept arguments against what Dawkins gives on the field as a player and a leader. But I do understand arguments about money. It gets real cut and dry for me. Would we be a better defense right now with Dawk or without him? My answer: WITH. Was he worth the money? My answer: Does it matter? It's not my money. The only part of that that would make it matter to me is if I thought that giving him an extra 2-3 mil of cap room would keep us from having someone else here that we needed. Which I don't.

But then, I have the luxury of just being a fan, and wanting the best team we can field. When the day comes that the Eagles start spending MY money for players like Dawk, my perspective could change.

End of ramble......

[Eagle60]

Well Freshy, at least we have The Woodchopper back!! He can bring excitement back to the defense. I remember when Trot left 2 years ago and Cole would do the "woodchop" after a sack in tribute to the departed leader. Well he's back, and it's clear the players on the defense welcome him. Leaders like him are hard to find. He says he still bleeds green and I believe him!

[FRESH]

Oh, I believe him too. I believe he still has the heart, fire and passion to be a terrific emotional force for this unit. The question is whether the wheels can back up the heart, mind and mouth. Dawk I felt certain had some mileage left. If Trotter does....well, it's just shy of a miracle.

[balto-eaglefan]

You can't point out that moving him up to the LOS probably hurt his INT numbers without also pointing out that it probably helped his sacks and FFs.

True enough, thanks for pointing that out! When I mentioned that the Eagles used him more around the LOS, I didn't really mean that as a good thing, or as an "excuse" for the dropoff in picks...........it points out how he doesn't have the range that he used to.

As for my "stats don't lie, statisticians do" part at the end, the numbers from my post make it almost look like he's the same player that he was in '06 or '04. But that's deceiving, nobody believes that.

[MDFAN]

Brian Dawkins choose to go to the Denver Bronco's because as a smart business man and good family provider --- they offered the most amount of money!

He thought it was the best choice in employment he could make. And it probably was!

The Philadelphia Eagles offered what they believed and, most other reasonable people agree, was a fair contract based on all their circumstances--- and they did believe that was the best interest of the Philadelphia Eagles. The Eagles made the best choice they thought for their organization.

Both sides did what they felt was the best thing for them.

I applaud both sides for having their convictions and sticking with them.

Brian Dawkins "was" a great Eagle--- he is "now" a Denver Bronco. He is not a Philadelphia Eagle------------- by his choice!

I root for the Philadelphia Eagles not the Denver Bronco's. I don't care anymore what Brian Dawkins does on Sunday's unless he is playing the Philadelphia Eagles ---- as a football player.

As a person I wish him nothing but the best, I appreciate the enjoyment and entertainment his employment with the Eagles has brought me in the past. But I don't know Brian Dawkins anymore than I know Jaws or Steve Carlton or Hugh Dougflas or Ike Reese or Trotter or Buckhalter or IP Feeley ..... they entertained me.

I care about the Philadelphia Eagles not Brian Dawkins. (from a football standpoint)