Jaws was part of Coach Search?

[FairOaks]

Because no coach is going to respect a guy who has never been involved in the game at any level. It's that simple.

Right, but that may be an idiotic, self-defeating attitude. Talent evaluation is a particular skill, and that can quite possibly be learned even if you never played. I don't think Ron Wolf ever played beyond high school (and that was 1950s high school football; little bearing on NFL talent needs in the 1990s). He became a scout, though did work in the administration side as well, before becoming a GM -- one of the best ever. Many players (probably most) are horrible at talent evaluation. Matt Millen played the game, right? If you don't base your opinions on someone's actual results, but instead simply use presumed background to dismiss his opinions, you could miss out on someone who is actually good at that job. Perhaps Roseman is very good at looking at the reports from the scouts and culling out the right opinions.

Roseman was hired in player personnel at the Jets before he came to the Eagles. He did work on the salary cap side, and go to law school, but he did have a persistent interest in football before then. It's not like he was a pure business guy who fell into personnel by accident.

I don't know how much of a real chance Roseman has gotten -- while he was named GM at one point, Reid had most actual control (or Banner did). It does sound like after Banner left, Roseman had a lot more control of the 2012 draft, and obviously the 2013 and 2014 drafts as well, though again Kelly and Gamble had quite a bit to say as well and many picks were obviously on Kelly. It's hard to really define how good Roseman would be on his own. There were clearly some good picks in that era, and some bad ones as well -- and for some it can be hard to tell whose fingerprints were mostly on it. It's a mixed record, not definitely good and not definitely bad.

I think I remember reading the suggestion to hire Washburn came from Roseman -- which was a disaster, and should have been shot down by Reid. That was an attempt to improve the quality of the coaching staff, but you can't hire a decent DC if you let the line coach dictate the style of play. So, that would be one example where Roseman's inexperience hurt (but one where more experienced folks were in position to stop it, and didn't).

If Kelly came in with a predisposed attitude towards Roseman to ignore any and all of his personnel opinions, that could have poisoned that relationship from the get-go. I'm guessing bringing in Gamble was part of the initial agreement to become coach -- he probably didn't trust Roseman, which can be OK as long as you still keep an open mind -- you can still respect someone even if you don't fully trust them. Lurie would have seen those interactions first-hand, of course. Given reports, it does sound like Roseman could be sensitive to those attitudes, and could well poison relationships right back. You'd hope that Lurie would be a good judge of who was more in the wrong.

Even now though, it does not seem as though Roseman will be given anything close to full control. He's clearly very good at dealing with agents and contracts (much better than Banner and I assume Kelly), and managing the salary cap, which is a big part of the job. But there are rumors that the Eagles will still be hiring at least one or two people at the personnel level, so Roseman will not become a traditional GM either. It probably remains to be seen what the structure will be, though if nothing changes between now and the draft, it sounds like Donahoe might even been the one with final say on the picks.

Reporters tend to like people who give them inside info, and in return will write puff pieces on those people to support them. Conversely, they dislike people who don't give out information. If Roseman is loyal to Lurie to the point he gives nothing to the press without Lurie's blessing (which might well explain the loyalty Lurie gives to Roseman in return), then most reporters in town will be predisposed to not liking Roseman, and will write hatchet jobs when the opportunity presents itself. Especially if people get fired and have an enmity for Roseman, and can give out some dirt to that effect. That situation would make it very hard to really get an honest picture as to what Roseman is like -- perceptions can be *very* slanted. On the other hand, those perceptions could well affect coaching hires, since those coaches might only have that same slanted information to begin with as well.

I think there were clearly front office issues which affected the team, and I'm not sure they have been solved just yet. Hopefully they can hire someone good (or more than one) who can work with both Pederson and Roseman.

[MDFAN]

Just as an aside.... this may be one of the longest threads that actually has no factual basis at all.

NOBODY knows anything about Rosmen or the REAL inner workings of the Eagles front office. Lurie has always wanted it that way.... it has never been clear to the outside world.

So trying to analyze either Rosmen or even Pederson or how this organization runs is just a futile effort--- and people should STOP coming to conclusions, based on unverified assumptions.

Getting off soap box now!

[Eagle60]

Right, but that may be an idiotic, self-defeating attitude. Talent evaluation is a particular skill, and that can quite possibly be learned even if you never played. I don't think Ron Wolf ever played beyond high school (and that was 1950s high school football; little bearing on NFL talent needs in the 1990s). He became a scout, though did work in the administration side as well, before becoming a GM -- one of the best ever. Many players (probably most) are horrible at talent evaluation. Matt Millen played the game, right? If you don't base your opinions on someone's actual results, but instead simply use presumed background to dismiss his opinions, you could miss out on someone who is actually good at that job. Perhaps Roseman is very good at looking at the reports from the scouts and culling out the right opinions.

Roseman was hired in player personnel at the Jets before he came to the Eagles. He did work on the salary cap side, and go to law school, but he did have a persistent interest in football before then. It's not like he was a pure business guy who fell into personnel by accident.

I don't know how much of a real chance Roseman has gotten -- while he was named GM at one point, Reid had most actual control (or Banner did). It does sound like after Banner left, Roseman had a lot more control of the 2012 draft, and obviously the 2013 and 2014 drafts as well, though again Kelly and Gamble had quite a bit to say as well and many picks were obviously on Kelly. It's hard to really define how good Roseman would be on his own. There were clearly some good picks in that era, and some bad ones as well -- and for some it can be hard to tell whose fingerprints were mostly on it. It's a mixed record, not definitely good and not definitely bad.

I think I remember reading the suggestion to hire Washburn came from Roseman -- which was a disaster, and should have been shot down by Reid. That was an attempt to improve the quality of the coaching staff, but you can't hire a decent DC if you let the line coach dictate the style of play. So, that would be one example where Roseman's inexperience hurt (but one where more experienced folks were in position to stop it, and didn't).

If Kelly came in with a predisposed attitude towards Roseman to ignore any and all of his personnel opinions, that could have poisoned that relationship from the get-go. I'm guessing bringing in Gamble was part of the initial agreement to become coach -- he probably didn't trust Roseman, which can be OK as long as you still keep an open mind -- you can still respect someone even if you don't fully trust them. Lurie would have seen those interactions first-hand, of course. Given reports, it does sound like Roseman could be sensitive to those attitudes, and could well poison relationships right back. You'd hope that Lurie would be a good judge of who was more in the wrong.

Even now though, it does not seem as though Roseman will be given anything close to full control. He's clearly very good at dealing with agents and contracts (much better than Banner and I assume Kelly), and managing the salary cap, which is a big part of the job. But there are rumors that the Eagles will still be hiring at least one or two people at the personnel level, so Roseman will not become a traditional GM either. It probably remains to be seen what the structure will be, though if nothing changes between now and the draft, it sounds like Donahoe might even been the one with final say on the picks.

Reporters tend to like people who give them inside info, and in return will write puff pieces on those people to support them. Conversely, they dislike people who don't give out information. If Roseman is loyal to Lurie to the point he gives nothing to the press without Lurie's blessing (which might well explain the loyalty Lurie gives to Roseman in return), then most reporters in town will be predisposed to not liking Roseman, and will write hatchet jobs when the opportunity presents itself. Especially if people get fired and have an enmity for Roseman, and can give out some dirt to that effect. That situation would make it very hard to really get an honest picture as to what Roseman is like -- perceptions can be *very* slanted. On the other hand, those perceptions could well affect coaching hires, since those coaches might only have that same slanted information to begin with as well.

I think there were clearly front office issues which affected the team, and I'm not sure they have been solved just yet. Hopefully they can hire someone good (or more than one) who can work with both Pederson and Roseman.

EXCELLENT! EXCELLENT! I really think you nailed it. Now I'll try to add just a little. Maybe Howie could be good at it but hell, AW might be good at it too. The fact is nobody with a football background will pay any attention to it and will most likely dismiss (and most likely resent) any of his input. Even Wolf played HS ball. The fact is that you have to have some type of athletic background to get into those spots to have some cred. Just because Howie has been in management for 16 years doesn't mean shit to a coach. And just because a guy owns the team doesn't mean shit either but a coach usually does what he says because he signs the checks.

SO it's not like I hate Rosie for being a GM, it's that I hate him being there because as long as Lurie keeps putting Banners and Rosemans into those spots we're going to have the same problems. There is always going to be friction.

His type may have succeeded before and could gain respect by success, but I don't have 25 years left for him to get it.

[taz]

[QUOTE=Eagle60;280045]

First of all, I don't "hate" Howie (but I do enjoy ragging on him). I guess that makes me some sort of "cyberbully" or something. I don't dislike you either taz, in fact I think you are a very good poster. Neither one of us knows exactly what goes on at the Nova Center so it's a guessing game that all of us love to play. But I do know human nature, and I have read quite a few books by players and coaches. I've also coached at the high school level and played in college so I've been around it. And I have been on this planet for 65 years which does give me some insight into how people think.

On all football teams there is jealousy. Everybody wants to be heard, everybody wants more power and there is a lot of backstabbing. I've seen it as a player, been part of it as a coach and have read about it in the pros.

Players in particular hate sportswriters and the front office personnel, and in most cases the owner. They just view them as wannabes. Assistant coaches have the knife in everybody's back trying to move up and I'm sure that's the case in front offices too. To tell you the truth I think dysfunction is the norm in most organizations.

With all that being said I'll now get around to Howie. First I'll ask you, do you think that it's been Howie's lifelong dream to write contracts for a professional football team? Do you really think that's what he wants to do? Do you think that he will be fulfilled doing that? I'll answer for you--of course not. He wants more.

As far as personnel goes that can go in all kinds of directions. Parcels left NE because of that. Kraft wanted some wide receiver and Parcels wanted some OLB so he left. So in that case you had the owner selecting, as Lurie did with Mamula and Tenn did years ago with Vince Young.

All of the people the Eagles were interviewing know enough football to be a HC. The fact that they chose DP does raise some eyebrows. Not because he isn't qualified because he certainly is. But why a nice young guy? And why did Coughlin just walk away?

It doesn't break my heart that Coughlin pulled out, but it sure raises a red flag as to why. I'm thinking that he just looked at the structure and wanted no part of it. Even more likely he looked at Howie and said to himself that there is no way that I'm going to be answering to this little twerp. And that is human nature.

There is Jealousy and office politics in every profession. Why should sports be any different. In fact my days of playing and coaching sports that were some of the most heated disagreements I have had. So what.

Nobody knows why Coughlin pulled out. Might have been he realized it would tarnish his legacy to go to a bitter rival. Maybe it was really true that he would not be able to assemble the staff he wanted. Maybe he didn't want to work with Dohanue or Roseman. Or maybe he didn't like the fact that the ownership might just want to rebuild from the ground up (my suspicion) and at his age. We will never know. We can only suspect.

One final thing on Roseman, why Lurie likes him so much. Lurie is an Owner of a FOR PROFIT business. Roseman and Smolenski keep his FOR PROFIT business running at the most optimal level. While winning a Super Bowl may be the fans most important thing, I would bet it may be 3 or 4th on Ole Jeffrey's list. Maximizing profitability is probably number 1. Having the Taj Ma Linc is number 2. Then maybe winning.

[Eagle60]

[QUOTE=taz;280053]

There is Jealousy and office politics in every profession. Why should sports be any different. In fact my days of playing and coaching sports that were some of the most heated disagreements I have had. So what.

Nobody knows why Coughlin pulled out. Might have been he realized it would tarnish his legacy to go to a bitter rival. Maybe it was really true that he would not be able to assemble the staff he wanted. Maybe he didn't want to work with Dohanue or Roseman. Or maybe he didn't like the fact that the ownership might just want to rebuild from the ground up (my suspicion) and at his age. We will never know. We can only suspect.

One final thing on Roseman, why Lurie likes him so much. Lurie is an Owner of a FOR PROFIT business. Roseman and Smolenski keep his FOR PROFIT business running at the most optimal level. While winning a Super Bowl may be the fans most important thing, I would bet it may be 3 or 4th on Ole Jeffrey's list. Maximizing profitability is probably number 1. Having the Taj Ma Linc is number 2. Then maybe winning.

Well that's just great for you, Jeff and Howie but it does squat for me.